Engine options for a Cabrio rebuild

[peterux]

You could try the GKD owners forum as some of their builders are seriously into the later BMW M52 engines.
http://www.gkdsportscars.com/gkdoc/forum/index.php

just a thought...but still not encouraging you to go that route

[limpabit]

Is there not a standalone ECU that supports the later BMW engines yet?

Even throttle bodies like the Zetec conversions??? Help with the intake size etc.

[mashtun]

Originally Posted by peterux

You could try the GKD owners forum as some of their builders are seriously into the later BMW M52 engines.

Funnily enough I 'discovered' GKD last week in a post on PistonHeads and have since read a few build blogs. The dash for the Legend is designed to take the BMW instrument cluster (which I thought might therefore be crucial) but I read of one builder who's using individual aftermarket instruments. Definitely worth following up...

Originally Posted by limpabit

Is there not a standalone ECU that supports the later BMW engines yet?

Even throttle bodies like the Zetec conversions??? Help with the intake size etc.

I've seen posts that say the aftermarket ECUs don't handle double VANOS but I'm still quite ignorant of that side of things, and the posts I saw could well be out of date now (or plain wrong...).

One reason for not going with the Zetec that I have is that I think it'll be tight for ITBs - but the BMW engines do lean over so there would be correspondingly more room on the inlet side.

My Cabrio's currently totally dismantled - I think I need to get back to a rolling chassis and have a measure up, see how the Zetec looks. If it fits then I can build a BMW-engined GKD Legend - "What do you mean we don't need two kitcars, dear?"

[Mike]

Originally Posted by mashtun

Funnily enough I 'discovered' GKD last week in a post on PistonHeads and have since read a few build blogs. The dash for the Legend is designed to take the BMW instrument cluster (which I thought might therefore be crucial) but I read of one builder who's using individual aftermarket instruments. Definitely worth following up...



I've seen posts that say the aftermarket ECUs don't handle double VANOS but I'm still quite ignorant of that side of things, and the posts I saw could well be out of date now (or plain wrong...).

One reason for not going with the Zetec that I have is that I think it'll be tight for ITBs - but the BMW engines do lean over so there would be correspondingly more room on the inlet side.

My Cabrio's currently totally dismantled - I think I need to get back to a rolling chassis and have a measure up, see how the Zetec looks. If it fits then I can build a BMW-engined GKD Legend - "What do you mean we don't need two kitcars, dear?"

Why do you want to go with the M52?
The inlet manifold on it was reduced in bore size to improve low level torque: this was at the expenses of top end power, so they had to increase the capacity to 2.8 to get the same power output as the M50 2.5.
The BMW boy racers will pay £100 for a standard M50 inlet manifold to then slightly modify to fit on to their M52 2.8 to get improved airflow at higher revs, as a very cheap power upgrade.
The only advantage the M52 offers is a later manufacture date, and the assumption that they will have done less miles. If you look for a good M50 they are well capable of 150-200k miles.
Also if you go for the later M52 you will have to fit a CAT, whereas the M50 does not require it for IVA.
Sorry, I just don't see the benefit in going for the M52, given all the attendant problems with what we know about EWS and from Tim and Peter's hard won experience.

[mashtun]

Originally Posted by Mike

Why do you want to go with the M52?

I don't - it's the fact they've clearly achieved success with EWS-equipped engines that's of interest. The donor requirements page says any E36/E46 engine - which presumably includes the M54 (a question to be asked...).

Originally Posted by Mike

Also if you go for the later M52 you will have to fit a CAT, whereas the M50 does not require it for IVA.

I don't have to go through IVA - my Cabrio has a V5 issued in 1994. My reading of the MOT docs is that regardless of what I do engine-wise I'll be subject only to a visual check on the exhaust - no emissions checks at all. It's on my 'todo' list to verify that this does indeed still apply if I fit a CAT-era engine.

Originally Posted by Mike

Sorry, I just don't see the benefit in going for the M52, given all the attendant problems with what we know about EWS and from Tim and Peter's hard won experience.

Don't worry - your comments about the M52 are noted

[Mike]

[QUOTE=

I don't have to go through IVA - my Cabrio has a V5 issued in 1994. My reading of the MOT docs is that regardless of what I do engine-wise I'll be subject only to a visual check on the exhaust - no emissions checks at all. It's on my 'todo' list to verify that this does indeed still apply if I fit a CAT-era engine.
:[/QUOTE]

Hi Mashtun

My understanding is the emissions on your Cabrio will tested on the date of the engine, not the registration date. I seem to remember John in Leeds looking in to this and he found that he had to prove the age of the engine to get it properly registered on the V5? If that is the case then I think July 95 is the cut-off date for catalytic requirement (BMW brought them in earlier than the legislation in UK required). But please check this yourself. Of course you can still fit one with a later date but a CAT is not cheap!
Mike

[mashtun]

Hi Mike,

I'm going on the wording in section 7.3 of this doc that says:

Vehicles fitted with a different engine: Test according to which is older, engine or vehicle.

and a note alongside the first flowchart in that section that says:

For emissions purposes only, kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used before 1 August 1998 ... are to be considered first used before 1 August 1975.

The path through the flowchart ends at "Visual only" in this case.

The doc does give an example of having to prove the age where a 1991 engine is fitted to a 1995 vehicle. But it seems to me that's a situation in which the owner has to prove that the more stringent rules shouldn't apply.

But I should check with an MOT tester to avoid a nasty shock...

Mark.

[mashtun]

Originally Posted by mashtun

But I should check with an MOT tester to avoid a nasty shock...

So I popped into 3 testing stations today and asked what emissions-related test would be carried out on a kit car registered in 1994 but fitted with an engine from a 1996 Mondeo (which is what my Zetec is from) or a post-2000 BMW (just to pick a year when a CAT would have been factory-fitted) i.e. not a question where I led with my own interpretation of the regs. The first two places I went were national or regional tyre and exhaust places and the third was an independent one man operation.

The first wasn't sure but phoned another tester who thought (without checking) that it would either be a visual check or a probe test at idle.

The second said that anything from 1992 on needed a cat and would be tested to that standard.

The third got out the testing manual, had a read for a few minutes, asked what my interpretation was ("visual only") and said straight away that he agreed with me.

It may not be consensus but at least I know where I'll be going when I get my Cabrio back together again

[mashtun]

Anyone got any comments on the first version of EWS? It seems to have been fitted to cars built in 1994 and appears to be much simpler than the second and later generations. It doesn't incorporate any of the electronic key verification stuff.

Mark.

[mashtun]

I'll find out in due course - just driven home with a '94 E36 that has an M50TUB25

It has just over 70000 on the clock which I must say is at odds with the state of the interior, but the BMW spec/info line put me onto a BMW dealer in Edinburgh who confirmed they'd serviced it regularly until 3 years ago, at which time it was at 58555. It's belonged to a mechanic for the last couple of years who serviced it himself (although that didn't amount to much as his wife only put 9000 miles or so on it).

No sign of any leaks, no smoking or rattling on starting from cold or when warmed up. Idles well, revs fine, pulls fine and the temp gauge sat bang on 12 o'clock on the journey home.

Thanks to all who shared their experiences and helped me make an informed decision. And those with an M50 brace yourselves for further questions in due course...

Mark.

[peterux]

there are some interesting rare engine options on eBay at present...
an M50 Alpina....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-Alpina...#ht_768wt_1344

and a 3.5 litre M30 engine....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E34-53...#ht_507wt_1344

[mashtun]

The Alpina one looks interesting - but having just got rid of two surplus engines out of the garage I'm not looking for another one just yet!

[mashtun]

Inspired by other madabout users, I signed myself up for a Flickr account a month or so ago and have gradually been adding photos. There are now enough uploaded to make it worth announcing.

And just to bring back a more seasonal feel during this spell of mild weather, here's a shot from earlier in the month (the first fall thankfully came the day after I got the engine out) :


Hiding by Mash_Tun, on Flickr

[peterux]

Wow, that's quite a project!!
The original build photo's are a real treasure

It must take you back....

[mashtun]

Originally Posted by peterux

It must take you back....

Searching through piles of old photos certainly did - I wish I knew who all the slim young things with full heads of hair are