Rubber Bushes

[GreatOldOne]

Guys,

I've managed to fubar one of the Marlin supplied bushes trying to press it into one of the top wishbone eyes. It seems to have got stuck on one side, and as the other side slid into place, it's took the metal inner bearing surface with it (torn it away), leaving the other side bulging out.

It's odd, as It was well lubricated with red rubber grease and I used the same method in pressing it in as I did with the diff mount and lower front wishbones - and they seemed to pop in no problem :icon_confused:

Anyhow, I need to press this one out, and get a replacement. Does anyone know where I can get one? I'm guessing I'll pay over the odds for one if I ring Terry...

Ta,

Jason

[MartinClan]

Don't ask me how I found this out 'cause I can't remember lol. The first note in my Marlin notebook is "Front suspension bushes are MB9120 Ford Fiesta Lower Suspension Arm"

So - straight out of the Ford parts bin it seems.

Cheers

Robin

[GreatOldOne]

Thanks Robin! :thumb:

[Patrick]

Robin, do you mind if i add that to the FAQ on my site? :)

I've been thinking polyurethane bushes might be nice upgrade wonder if for parts would do for that?

[GreatOldOne]

Hang on Patrick... I've googled that part number (MB9120), as the parts department at the local Ford place don't recognise it.

As far as I can tell that's a manufacturer code, and the Ford part number is 1619120 - at least that's what I thought, according to this site:

http://www.webparts.co.uk/Trupart/Buyguide/HTML/MB9120.HTM

But either that's wrong or the Ford parts dept are a bunch of numpties, because they can't find it.

Bah. Never have this problem at the BMW parts counter. :rolleyes: ;)

I'll see how much Terry want for one. It'll probably be easier in the long run.

[Patrick]

Hmm in that case I wonder what poly bushes Marlin used on their race car... :)

[GreatOldOne]

Dunno - but I do know that Marlin charges £9 each for them... I just got of the phone to Terry, and she's sending me a new rubber one. She didn't know how much they where, but she did know that they're a lot cheaper than the poly's.

And the nice thing is she's sending out today, and is just making a note that I owe them for the bush, and she'll invoice me for it when I order the next stage. :)

[Patrick]

I checked on burton power but couldn't see anything suitable, prices seem to be in the £8 - £12 + VAT range.

At £9 per poly = £72 for the whole front end. That's not too bad I guess :)

[GreatOldOne]

Start of a slipery slope though... You'll be wanting poly rollbar blocks next, and then you'll be tearing the back end off and fitting poly's in the trailing arms... :D

[Patrick]

you read my mind :lol: :madgrin:

[GreatOldOne]

New bush recieved from Terry earlier in the week. The new one is the same shape as all others (a rounded profile on the top and bottom of the bush). The one that got buggered up was the same shape as the picture in the webparts link.

Any how, got them all pressed in now. It's odd... All of them went in no problem. It was just that different shaped one.

I guess the shape of the others allow you to get the bush more 'square' to the eye when you start to apply the pressure to squeeze it in.

[peterux]

I wonder if these will fit a Sportster front suspension?

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=1375_1594_1600_1602&products_id=11844

these are for a Westfield. At £28 a set they are a bargin.

the also do a 'Locost' version...

I think I'll drop them an email and asked for dimensions.

[Patrick]

ahh I knew I looked at this before! :) I guess I didn't get very far. Let us know what the dims are on those if you email them, seems like a cost effective way to stiffen up the front end :)

[peterux]

There are also these listed which are even cheaper............
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=533_741_748&products_id=5099

If Robin's info is correct then these should fit Ok

[MartinClan]

If Robin's info is correct then these should fit Ok

Can't remember where the info came from now - suggest you check it first before spending any hard-earned!

Best

Robin

[peterux]

There are also these listed which are even cheaper............
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=533_741_748&products_id=5099

If Robin's info is correct then these should fit Ok

In fact these are £6 each, not a pair, so £48 a set +P&P+vat. (I mis-read their web page, doh!)

They look the right size visually, but I have not fitted them yet. I will post another update when fitted.

Peter

[Patrick]

What type did you get the polyrace or the other ones?

[peterux]

What type the polyrace or the other ones?

The ones I ordered are marked Polysport and are bright yellow. Not the highest quality mouldings, but good value. The yellow ones seem quite soft, so the Polyrace might be better/harder but not sure i'd be able tell the difference when driving? :smile:

[Patrick]

In my (limited) experience you'll feel more of the more vibrations through the wheel and at higher speeds it will feel a tad more solid into the bends, should be more stable under breaking as well as the angles don't change as much. The harder the material the more vibration you'll feel.

I wouldn't use poly bushes on the rear trailing arms for example as it becomes too harsh for road use (in a normal car). I'd use them in if it were for track use. I would guess it would be similar in the Sportster.

If they are harder than the rubber ones, but not completely solid that is probably a good compromise!

[MartinClan]

In fact these are £6 each, not a pair, so £48 a set +P&P+vat. (I mis-read their web page, doh!)

They look the right size visually, but I have not fitted them yet. I will post another update when fitted.

Peter

Just looked up the price of the Powerflex ones. ( http://www.polyurethanebushes.com/index.php/cPath/166_168 ) Over £39 a pair on this website - gulp. The ones you found look a good value at that rate.

Robin

[peterux]

I was moving the car into the garage tonight and was moving it backwards and forwards to get the car in the right position. I was looking at the offside wheel to get the car in the right position. (not much space in my garage).

I was amazed to see how much the mudgaurd moves as the stub axle rotates under braking (from about 3mph!) I could see the mudguard bolts moving up and down about 1cm. The rubber bushes allow the top wishbone to move about and not just up and down.

I think a set of hard'sh polybushes for the top wishbones will be top of my list of upgrades once the car is finished.

Anybody else noticed this?

Peter

[Patrick]

Yup noticed mine move quite far under braking. I'm looking at changing them out as well. I can see why they no longer wish to supply the rubber ones.

However the powerflex ones they supply are really muchos expensive, especially compared to the set you can get from rally design.

[peterux]

I've got the Rally Design Polysports on the lower wishbones. They are bright yellow and quite soft.
I might go for the Polyrace(harder) on the top wishbones. Do you thnik mixing them on the same axle would be a problem?

Peter

[Patrick]

Don't think so I've got the powerflex ones on the bottom wishbones and rubber at the top, seems to drive and steer fine. I'm wait on costs from a few places on more powerflex ones.

[MartinClan]

Just had this email from Terry


I can now do these at £16 per arm. Just managed to get a better deal :-)
Cheers
Terry

Ps I'm quite happy for you to mention this on the web site. If people
however want to get the old type they are from Sierra front inner track
control arm


Robin

[Patrick]

I've replaced my top wish bone bushes today with the Rally Design ones, I went with the harder ones (PB013B).

Suspension deformation under normal braking as substantially reduced, it feels more solid at the front. I've not had a chance to properly drive it yet but I would say its very much a worth while improvement if you're still running standard fiesta TCA bushes.

Also my top wish bone had surface rusted underneath around the welds so worth a check ever so often.

[peterux]

I've replaced my top wish bone bushes today with the Rally Design ones, I went with the harder ones (PB013B).

Suspension deformation under normal braking as substantially reduced, it feels more solid at the front. I've not had a chance to properly drive it yet but I would say its very much a worth while improvement if you're still running standard fiesta TCA bushes.

Also my top wish bone had surface rusted underneath around the welds so worth a check ever so often.


How do they compare to the ones Marlin sent you (Powerflex?) for hardness?

[Patrick]

How do they compare to the ones Marlin sent you (Powerflex?) for hardness?

Quite similar I would say, nicer too as they are black rather than purple.

[MartinClan]

I started to fit my new lower suspension arms this evening. First job was to fit the "new" aftermarket bushes. The problem is that they don't fit! They are too loose allowing the metal insert that carries the bolt to rotate within the poly moulding. Easily checked by clamping the bush in a vice and trying to move the suspension arm. The metal insert should not slip within the poly bush - all movement being absorbed by the poly bush itself distorting.

So they look good - but wouldn't last 5 minutes in practice. I am not sure what the problem is. Could be the eyes in the suspension arms are a little oversize, or just the bushes are not suited to the job. Any suggestions gratefully received!

I think I might have to return to original Ford Fiesta parts assuming I can get them. I would recommend anyone else using these bushes with the new suspension arms to check them carefully.

Ho hum....

Robin

[Patrick]

How loose is loose? You can normally push the metal bit in by hand with these. In my experience these tend to work more like a "ball joint" than a bush.

[peterux]

Yeah, my rally Design 'slip' rather than 'distort'

Peter

[MartinClan]

How loose is loose? You can normally push the metal bit in by hand with these.

Yes - mine are like that.

Yeah, my rally Design 'slip' rather than 'distort'

Hmm - yours as well. I can't help thinking that the metal sleeve rubbing on the poly bush is going to wear it quickly. I thought the theory of these was that the process of clamping the whole thing in place, with the through bolt, compressed the poly bit of the bush so that it gripped the metal sleeve and then all the movement was taken care of by the poly bush flexing. I wonder if anyone else can shed some light on this?

As an aside - I popped into my local Ford dealer today and he confirmed that the Ford Fiesta bush that we all previously used is no longer available - so whatever the answer it won't be this.

Robin

[Patrick]

I cover my poly bushes with copper grease so they slip more easily and don't wear out quickly :)

The front lower rear wish bone bush on my E46 is a polyflex one, its made out of two pieces - these two pieces are covered in copper gears and slip inside each other. They move freely with the wishbone like a ball joint - so you get a much smoother less restricted movement on the wishbone. I figure the same theory applies to these. The bushes act like a rose joint / ball joint allow the components to move freely.

[GreatOldOne]

Mine where a tight push fit on all of the suspension eyes - top and bottom. I used copper slip to aid the fitting, as suggested on the note with the parts from floflex. The inner metal sleeve was much the same - tight, but not overly so

[MartinClan]

I used copper slip to aid the fitting, as suggested on the note with the parts from floflex.

Aha - I didn't get this note with my bits from FloFlex. Did it say anything else I should know about?

Regards

Robin

[GreatOldOne]

No - just that. I was going to use red rubber grease, but when I read the note I used my copper slip instead.

[MartinClan]

I have decided I am not at all happy with the polybush solution - particularly on the lower wishbone. If the sleeve rotates within the bushes then the bushes will be rotating with the wishbone (as it goes up and down) Therefore the outsides of the bushes will be rotating against the suspension mounting brackets. It won't be long before they wear in that case.....

Fortunately I was able to salvage the original Fiesta bushes (Supplied by Marlin but no longer available according to Ford) from my first set of wishbones so I am going to use these.

Anyone else have any theories about this?

Robin

[peterux]

I presume that this would be the same for all cars fitted with poly bushes fitted?:noidea:

[MartinClan]

I presume that this would be the same for all cars fitted with poly bushes fitted?:noidea:

I'm not so sure. The problem could be that the original use of the bush is in a stabiliser bar designed for lateral location rather than rotation. In this case the rotation around the sleeve would be minimal.

There is also another problem with the poly bushes as GOO discovered. The rubber Fiesta bushes allow some movement of the metal sleeve within the bush back and forward. This allows the wishbone to fit even if it is a few mm out of size. The poly bushes don't allow this meaning the wishbone has to be an exact fit. In fact my old and new wishbones are exactly the same dimensions - but neither would fit using the poly bushes without doing something drastic (as GOO did)

Having salvaged them I think I will stick with the rubber bushes for now...

Robin

[RobDorey]

Peter,

How do you get on with the yellow bushes?
Did they fit okay?

I've also knadgered my old bushes, changing to the new wishbones.

I wonder what colour the Polyrace ones are?

[peterux]

Peter,

How do you get on with the yellow bushes?
Did they fit okay?

I've also knadgered my old bushes, changing to the new wishbones.

I wonder what colour the Polyrace ones are?

Yes, they seem to fit and work just fine. I've only got them fiited to the lower wishbones and I don't know if the Polyraces are yellow.

Peter

[peterux]

Following on from our previous discussion about poly type bushes, I came across this information today....

http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/88643-guide-to-wishbone-bushes/

I'm sure the poly bush suppliers might not agree with his conclusions, but nonetheless some interesting observations and food for thought.

I've currently got my nearside suspension in pieces for a clean up and fitting new ball joints. I wasn't planning on taking the lower wishbone off but after reading this article I might take it off and see how the Rally design bushes are doing after about 2.5k miles.

[atlantasportster]

Thanks Peter, very informative article.
I wondered why the mechanics, with cars on the lift, used a transmission jack to push the wishbones up to ride height before snugging the bolts.
Now I know. :thumb:

[MartinClan]

Following on from our previous discussion about poly type bushes, I came across this information today....

http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/88643-guide-to-wishbone-bushes/

I'm sure the poly bush suppliers might not agree with his conclusions, but nonetheless some interesting observations and food for thought.

I've currently got my nearside suspension in pieces for a clean up and fitting new ball joints. I wasn't planning on taking the lower wishbone off but after reading this article I might take it off and see how the Rally design bushes are doing after about 2.5k miles.

I have to confess I wondered about the effectiveness of the Poly type bushes. I only have them at the top and that was only because I couldn't track down any more of the Ford bushes that were originaly used. It will be interesting to see what you find.

BTW - while I was playing with my car and fitting the new servo I checked all my Metro balljoints. All mine look fine. So I suspect the longeveity depends on getting a well known make. I think mine were all QH.

Cheers

Robin

[morris]

It's quite hard to find definitive instructions on how poly bushes should be fitted too. common sense dictates that the crush tube should be the only part bearing on the bracket but that always leaves me wondering it the poly could then work its way out of the wishbone. This is especially a concern on the sportster front top wishbones where the bracket is essential one sided. I originally fitted washers here that only touched the crush tube and then changed my mind and put big ones on to cover the poly too. Now I'm wondering again.

If you look at the outer surface of the powerflex bushes they have little channels molded in in 3 places. I'd come to the conclusion that this was to collect any debris as the entire bush moves in the wishbone eye rather than the crush tube inside the rigidly held bush.

[peterux]

I unbolted my nearside lower wishbone this afternoon. With the wishbone disconnected from the damper but still bolted to the chassis, everything seemed fine albeit a bit creaky.
I then took the wishbone off and dismantled the bushes. With the bushes out of the wishbone tubes, the crush tubes are now loose meaning the bushes have either shrunk or worn? These are the Rally Design Yellow (soft) ones. I think they have either worn or are too soft for the lower wishbones.

Not sure what to do next...new Superflex quality bushes, back to the rubber ones or just stick them back on and not worry about it?

[peterux]

If you look at the outer surface of the powerflex bushes they have little channels molded in in 3 places. I'd come to the conclusion that this was to collect any debris as the entire bush moves in the wishbone eye rather than the crush tube inside the rigidly held bush.

According to the Superpro website.....

BULLET GROOVES AND VOIDING
Bullet grooves are incorporated in the design of SuperPro bushes to allow for variances in control arm or spring eyes.
The voiding and bullet grooves also allow for the transgression of displaced polyurethane into the volume of the grooves as load is applied during normal vehicle operation. Even though polyurethane is in a solid form when it is manufactured into bushes, its unique properties enable it flow in a manner similar to a liquid when loaded. The action of the bush flowing into its voids prevents the generation of harshness and NVH within the bush and its mount.


... :noidea:

[MartinClan]

Not sure what to do next...new Superflex quality bushes, back to the rubber ones or just stick them back on and not worry about it?

I think the rubber ones are best - if you can locate any....

Just checked. Loads on e-bay ATM. I think I might get some spares myself....


Robin

[peterux]

I think the rubber ones are best - if you can locate any....

Just checked. Loads on e-bay ATM. I think I might get some spares myself....


Robin

Thanks, Robin. I think I'm coming to the same conclusion for the lower wishbones.

Firstline list them (FSK 5969, I think) so shouldn't be too difficult to get hold of.

[MartinClan]

I just bought some from ebay. 220947427744. He has loads.

The picture of the bag is exactly the same as the ones supplied by Marlin - I remember the yellow label. (Strange really, as sometimes I forget what day it is but I can remember a yellow label from 5 years ago haha....)

Cheers

Robin

[GreatOldOne]

Good find - just got some myself for the rebuild :)

[MartinClan]

So it's out with the vaseline and WD40 again ;-)

[GreatOldOne]

Ooh, Matron! :biggrin1:

[peterux]

Ooh, er we've started a new rubber (bushes) fetish!

I popped in my local motor factors (Car Parts Direct) this afternoon and picked up two new ones at £1.99 each (plus Vat) so only £9.55 for four, all in. The other two will be in tomorrow afternoon.

They are made by Pearl High tech parts (who I have never heard off!) and are part number PB17. They seem to be very hard runbber so getting them in looks like fun :wink:

[GreatOldOne]

I just bought some from ebay. 220947427744. He has loads.

The picture of the bag is exactly the same as the ones supplied by Marlin - I remember the yellow label. (Strange really, as sometimes I forget what day it is but I can remember a yellow label from 5 years ago haha....)

Cheers

Robin

Robin - double check your bushes. I ordered some new ones from the same chap, from the same eBay listing, and they don't fit. John (Oaktree) ordered some as well, and his are the same as mine. The inner tube of the bush is approx. 2mm larger in diameter than the old bushes.

[MartinClan]

Hmm - that's odd. I will check mine. Sat in the cupboard of spare bits at the moment.

Robin

[GreatOldOne]

Robin (and anyone else who may have purchased these bushes from the same eBay listing),

John and I have been in contact with the Graham the seller, and are sending our bushes back. On closer inspection of my consignment, there are two different types - one with the correct rounded end profile and 10mm tube in the middle, and one with the beveled profiles and larger 12mm tube:

http://greatoldone.squarespace.com/storage/bushes/bushes1.jpg
http://greatoldone.squarespace.com/storage/bushes/bushes2.jpg

This lead me to believe that Graham's supplier has sent him two distinct types under the same part number.

Graham has now checked this (He's opened up 10 packets so far, and they're all a mixture of the two) so it looks as if this is the case. He's replacing mine and John's order with the correct ones.

So - check your bushes. If they have a round profile, like the one in the left of the pics above, you should be ok. But just to be safe, get your callipers out and measure the inner tube diameter.

Cheers

GOO

[peterux]

TBH, the ones on the left of your pictures don't look right to me either. (They have bulging sides?)
And it may be the photo but the quality of the rubber on the left one looks somewhat suspect.

I'll take some pictures of mine later as I've only got around to refitting one side....:sad:

[peterux]

I'll take some pictures of mine later as I've only got around to refitting one side....:sad:

OK, here's a couple of pics.....

An original Ford part which was supplied by Marlin (Easter 2004, gulp!) is shown on the left and the recently purchased Pearl PB17 bush on the right.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7243/6997775449_4a4403e12e_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peters-bmwmarlin/6997775449/)
Suspension bushes (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peters-bmwmarlin/6997775449/) by marlinpeter (http://www.flickr.com/people/peters-bmwmarlin/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7134/6851650964_7d3740c53f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peters-bmwmarlin/6851650964/)
Suspension bushes (http://www.flickr.com/photos/peters-bmwmarlin/6851650964/) by marlinpeter (http://www.flickr.com/people/peters-bmwmarlin/), on Flickr

[Grey V8 Pete]

I Googled the part no on the bush 81-AB-3063-BB and found the following pdf file:

http://www.bydotomotiv.com.tr/pdf/suspansiyon/suspansiyon_5.pdf

Scroll down to page 7 and it shows this part number as for Sierra Scorpio. Peter

[peterux]

I Googled the part no on the bush 81-AB-3063-BB and found the following pdf file:

http://www.bydotomotiv.com.tr/pdf/suspansiyon/suspansiyon_5.pdf

Scroll down to page 7 and it shows this part number as for Sierra Scorpio. Peter

Pete, thanks for this but I don't think the part number/application is in question.
I think it is just this particular eBay supplier has got his parts mixed up.