Miglia for sale !!

[micky1mo]

Found this Miglia up for sale.

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2018-03-03/cars/ref-17-1971-triumph-miglia-speedster/

https://i.imgur.com/mxAF5f6h.jpg


Should be an interesting auction.:director:

[redratbike]

Someone just posted this in another thread

Chrome side trim really changes the look of the car also the chrome trim on the screen edge

[lancelot link]

If you miss out on this one ....here's another opportunity for someone ...

https://www.rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/AZ18/Arizona/lots/r187-1954-jaguar-d-type-works/574559

[redratbike]

If you miss out on this one ....here's another opportunity for someone ...

https://www.rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/AZ18/Arizona/lots/r187-1954-jaguar-d-type-works/574559

You need a lottery win and then some!!!

[Paul L]

Prompted by a post by RayHutch on the Formosa forum, I've just looked this car up.

It went for over £5,000 more than the top guide price, £17,545! :cool:

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2018-03-03/cars/ref-17-1971-triumph-miglia-speedster/

Which supports Mister Towed's theory about selling these cars where people are looking at the prices for 'real' ones.

Cheers, Paul. :)

[lancelot link]

I think with buyers premium , it hit the best part of twenty grand !

[Lucky@LeMans]

When you factor in the hours it takes to build a car like this then the buyer is getting a bargain. Whilst you don't think about it when building your project because you are building the car for yourself, you still end up with a valuable product when its finished.

[Onlinesys]

I think with buyers premium , it hit the best part of twenty grand !

I am the lad who bought it. Yes, $15.5k plus buyer’s premium and logistics to Hong Kong. Not to mention the first registration tax if I register it on the road. Likely to use the clsssic car moving permit and/or trade license plate initially but as someone over here reckons the time and passion to build this kitcar is way more valuable than the legal tender I contributed. I have no experience in the engine of this car so if anyone knows this car please enlighten me with whatever info is available. Thanks in advance and apologize for my Chinguish as English is my second language

[micky1mo]

Onlinesys Welcome to the forum. :welcome:

Most of the Sammio/ Miglia/ Formosa style cars sold go to Europe so it's nice to hear one of them making it all the way to Hong Kong.

Why not start a new thread and tell us all about your experiences with your new toy!! :biggrin:

[Onlinesys]

Hi micky1lo, not sure if my one is the only one in HK though. The car should be now on the ship and ETA 20/4. I will start a thread once it is arrived. As I am a rookie on kitchen, I will be having a lot of questions and queries in this forum. Stay tuned

[Onlinesys]

BTW, anyone knows the history of this car. Much appreciated for any info provided

[Paul L]

Onlinesys – Welcome to the forum. :cool:

There are not many Miglias on the road in the UK, so I am sure you will have a veryunique car in Hong Kong.

I don’t know anything about your car, but there are other Miglia builds listed in this thread.

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4782

Unfortunately, this thread needs a bit of an update and there are problems with some of the photos. :icon_sad:

Good luck, Paul. :)

PS
Don’t worry about your English, as I wouldn’t even know where to start with Chinese. :wink:

[Onlinesys]

Thanks Paul. I guess all body shells are now from Tribute Automotive according to the forum over here and I am surprised there are almost zero new owner talking about their miglia built since tgen

[lancelot link]

Thanks Paul. I guess all body shells are now from Tribute Automotive according to the forum over here and I am surprised there are almost zero new owner talking about their miglia built since tgen

Forum over here ? can I have a link to that please?

Tribute aren't advertising the Miglia . I think Chris has reservations about mould quality and just doesn't have the time to deal with it due to current workload ...but please don't take that as gospel ...

[Onlinesys]

Finally arrived in HK. Drove from container warehouse back to hime but coolant temperature was always at the maximum. A bit panic so drive directly to the garage. Mechanic suspected the sensor cable of coolant is faulty as everything seems ok. Speedometer not working neither. Driver’s seat is non-adjustable. Need a cushion as my legs are not long enough for a comfortable position. Everything else seems fine and the triple Weber and exhausts sound great

[Barber]

Enjoy that car.

[Onlinesys]

Thanks but need to sort out the coolant gauge maximum reading issue first

[davecymru]

Onlinesys - Nice car! and i'm glad to hear it arrived safely!

It's good to know that there are other Miglia's out there, even if they are the other side of the world :)

The niggles you mentioned sound really minor, so i imagine that you'll be out-n-about and enjoying the car in no time and we look forward to some different location shots! :)

[Onlinesys]

Just took it out for 2 days morning drive as we are approaching the summer heat wave at 35 degree c in the day time. All well except the sticky brake lights, non moving odo and speedometer.
Triple Weber and 2500TC engine and exhausts sound fabulous

[Mister Towed]

Nice!

[Paul L]

Onlinesys - Great photos. :cool:

(Although this has come out a bit bigger than I was expecting. :rolleyes:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/D0aH25nrBaM7AfntsxCLM1nHZLLJMVnL1Qu-8EpNOyv96AEerrI8rsV3TJRCX6eLNBCmJcrDr-x_Kl35RK6MNbIxVRiQpHaldS_HTAZkGYSZeDToYOTbzrEvhDNQ eEWSijukF-EQuVgJPjZ3t3zGzJ0WwSfgce7Du1YKty6soNVwZh8Yeh6G0IyT IO4TwunlWVMQQcwk5AanmjDW8T-AUeevE47EkDIQabJgV_FGJ8tj6SjV5_0MYedgiFz_2qdlS3Hb-jnXd0NP522cBe3dWb9HutQ1w-fEW0gQK1BpV2adanGgpKszt2D-aIGS-X3SS-9pg-55yk_XG--YDQvOoVMWx6oAHlPMglj0eYh7A6saqLKBcnL_S_YRR2D7Bm2LO hRpGMl6cvmBNF7LPynY1X0Mm7-AHTccRTIudN0X4hoJUHtMzCZxEqeXp68SbYN_vVSJVPzRayMRC B20t3BhfuFRDIjT9uuMp4EtEldqSe-cXyoT3YQ0-VGgA072UMQOBQlsJPOw5UBv_xxND9OEwIp3dIiKwCQQ4ttybb8 BYHa3tdS-dFgoPr_0q7zALZuZrDivRAwTjeku7f1Pe9dP5-65BsM7FSCc8Wn6ay-m=w1456-h819-no

Based on the website…

https://sundaymorningdrive.pixieset.com/27thmay2018/

It looks like this is a very popular road! :eek:

But your car certainly stands out and I'm sure you get a good reaction.

Enjoy, Paul. :)

[micky1mo]

Sure looks good but with that helmet you need this paint job.:laugh:

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w551/micky1mo/009_zpspokrpayy.jpg (http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/micky1mo/media/009_zpspokrpayy.jpg.html)

[rochdaleGT]

it was a lucky day for the seller and the auctioneer that a solvent buyer from abroad put so much money on the table for the car.

with just local-buyers the car would hardly reached the minimum.

it was a fortuity which does not mean that those cars really have such a value.
its just an old triumph with a new body!!

really "amazing" that such a high priced car already shows the typical problems of homebuilt cars on the first test-drive. that non working speedo was already not workng b4 the auction.....

i hope for the buyer that he wont be faced with ongoing teething-problems in the future, as he has already overpaid at least 7k on the auction.

[oxford1360]

Nurse! Jeremiah is out of bed again.

[Barber]

it was a lucky day for the seller and the auctioneer that a solvent buyer from abroad put so much money on the table for the car.

with just local-buyers the car would hardly reached the minimum.

it was a fortuity which does not mean that those cars really have such a value.
its just an old triumph with a new body!!

really "amazing" that such a high priced car already shows the typical problems of homebuilt cars on the first test-drive. that non working speedo was already not workng b4 the auction.....

i hope for the buyer that he wont be faced with ongoing teething-problems in the future, as he has already overpaid at least 7k on the auction.

With only attendees who are not interested in 1950s style sportscars, the price would be even less. Your argument is fallacious, probably best described as b*ll*cks. The nature of an auction, is that the car cannot fetch a price higher than anyone is prepared to pay, which establishes the value. The fact that you don't think it was worth it has nothing to do with it, and certainly not worth spurious posts on here.

[lancelot link]

With only attendees who are not interested in 1950s style sportscars, the price would be even less. Your argument is fallacious, probably best described as b*ll*cks. The nature of an auction, is that the car cannot fetch a price higher than anyone is prepared to pay, which establishes the value. The fact that you don't think it was worth it has nothing to do with it, and certainly not worth spurious posts on here.

Probably worth pointing out , that , technically - as long as fair play is in attendance , it takes two to not only tango but to achieve a price in an Auction ..therefore there must have been at least two people prepared to pay that amount ...

Classic car prices are rising , often don't make sense depending on various results and vary considerably ...It is a factor of this that has resulted in replica or tribute styled cars to follow on their shirt tails ...many classic cars at auction have faults at point of sale ...these cars are based on the same donor parts ..so will have similar properties ...

I think it was a little high , personally ...but not for me to speculate on ...compared to Toweds it was a bargain ...but I felt that was a lucky sale too ...


They are worth what they sell for at the end of the day ......the way they are marketed and the intended audience would definitely be a factor in final price achieved ..

[oxford1360]

...it takes two to not only tango but to achieve a price in an Auction.

Indeed, an auctioneer who I know well says that the underbidder is the most important person as it is they who set the hammer price.

She concedes that a reserve plays a part, but if an item doesn't sell, then the reserve was too high for that lot on that day.

This car sold, ergo it was worth hammer plus commission to whomever bid on that day at that time. Whether that is more or less than the seller had hoped for is irrelevant...rather like the point that rochdaleGT was trying to make.

Looking at this with a more open mind (rochdaleGT, that's a hint), many objects have a monetary value that is greater than the sum of their component parts. This is because they can bring pleasure, happiness and joy (rochdaleGT, you may wish to consult a dictionary). These feelings are beyond value, so if the new owner experiences any of them, he has himself a bargain.

Go on, rochdaleGT, make us all happy; put a monetary value on joy.

[Paul L]

…its just an old triumph with a new body!!...

…many objects have a monetary value that is greater than the sum of their component parts

Oxford - You took the words right out of my mouth. :icon_wink:

If you follow the link in Post #21 above, you will see a dedicated car/bike scene in Hong Kong.

Lots of cars, worth lost of money, but only one Miglia and nothing else even close.

So, in the words of Mastercard…

”Standing out from the crowd, priceless.” :cool:

[smash]

Sure looks good but with that helmet you need this paint job.:laugh:

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w551/micky1mo/009_zpspokrpayy.jpg (http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/micky1mo/media/009_zpspokrpayy.jpg.html)


Prices are what prices are, if you want it you want it

Micky gotta say I love your car - looks spot on!

[Mister Towed]

Nothing to do with me, being sold by someone calling themselves 'davecymru'...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1950s-Mille-Miglia-inspired-hand-built-Sports-car-Lancia-D24-D25-Maserati/302812247897?hash=item4681043759:g:svgAAOSwg5VbUgI G

Looks to be a very nice example indeed that would be a bargain for someone at the start price. :)

[Paul L]

Mr T – Good spot and it looks like Dave has adopted your style of prose for the ad. :cool:

I enjoyed reading both of Dave’s build threads and I wish him well with the sale, Paul. :)

[oxford1360]

Mr T – Good spot and it looks like Dave has adopted your style of prose for the ad. :cool:

I enjoyed reading both of Dave’s build threads and I wish him well with the sale, Paul. :)

Oo, another opportunity for rochdaleGT to have his thruppence ha'penny worth. Where's the popcorn?

[davecymru]

Mr T – Good spot and it looks like Dave has adopted your style of prose for the ad. :cool:

I enjoyed reading both of Dave’s build threads and I wish him well with the sale, Paul. :)

Cheers gents.

It is indeed my car up for sale as I've come to the sad conclusion that i'm using it less and less due to work and other commitments and it was killing me to see it just sat there in the garage!

As for the whole price debate that seems to have been raging on here while I've been away, well... as my dad used to say "something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it", so we shall have to wait and see.

But i've looked at what over cars have gone for, coupled with what my Sammio went for and how much more advanced this car is and i think I've set an honest and very reasonable starting price. Internet types can debate this as much as they want - tbh, i don't care what they have to say! :)

As to what project comes next, we shall have to wait and see. But the Formosa does look very nice :)

[Lucky@LeMans]

A friend of mine is a builder of houses. He assembles a pile of bricks, some wood and plasterboard along with some finishing off bits and pieces and he has become an extremely wealthy man !
If you have the skills you have a valuable asset and there are plenty of people with plenty of money to spend out there.
The classic car scene is no exception, our skills as builders are highly sought after whether you accept that or not !

[Mister Towed]

A friend of mine is a builder of houses. He assembles a pile of bricks, some wood and plasterboard along with some finishing off bits and pieces and he has become an extremely wealthy man !
If you have the skills you have a valuable asset and there are plenty of people with plenty of money to spend out there.
The classic car scene is no exception, our skills as builders are highly sought after whether you accept that or not !

Well said, nail hit firmly on the head.

[smash]

It's certainly a bargain compared to this!

https://m.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1010483

I'm always trawling for cars and to me, it looks like the market has slowed down. Nubodi's red coupe demo is on at 29k - looks well and has full interior but donor choice might stiffle it. Imho

[oxford1360]

Ouch, the "Make" is listed as "Ferrari" in the footer details.

[Onlinesys]

Sure looks good but with that helmet you need this paint job.:laugh:

http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w551/micky1mo/009_zpspokrpayy.jpg (http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/micky1mo/media/009_zpspokrpayy.jpg.html)

No , the paint job of the helmet is great. I reckon it must be the editing effect🧐

[Onlinesys]

Oxford - You took the words right out of my mouth. :icon_wink:

If you follow the link in Post #21 above, you will see a dedicated car/bike scene in Hong Kong.

Lots of cars, worth lost of money, but only one Miglia and nothing else even close.

So, in the words of Mastercard…

”Standing out from the crowd, priceless.” :cool:

We pay 120% tax over here for expensive car. And you need to line up even you are eager to pay some of the sort-after models. By paying so much tax, HK is one of the cheapest place to get a second hand Ferrari cause the Rich will not buy old models or second hand and the normal John won’t be able to afford the running cost. Plus the cheapest parking space is GBP$100k to buy.

I am more than happy to pay the premium and enjoy it. The miglia engine/exhausts sound better than my other cars

[Onlinesys]

BTW, my first ever car was a Triumph TR7.
I reckon most of us over here are not too rational anyway when you are into classic and kit cars

[rochdaleGT]

there is 1 car sold totally overpriced aborad and now the community thinks to replicate this again by advertizing their cars for a high price.


you need to keep in mind: its still a triumph spitfire, with all its pro´s and con´s...nothing quick, nothing track orientated, rear suspension a bit "vague" , the "kit" supplier has no real historic related history....there is no historic value at all with those cars.....so why should i pay so much money?

at the end of the day, to be honest, those kits only exist to "bypass" IVA test.....to make it a cheap kit for the homebuilder to overcome latest registration-laws.

this said: the body-shape and design is great.....such a body on a spaceframe chassis (aka Locost) with the typcal seven-ish live-axle or even an IRS, in combination with a well tuned x/flow engine (for the oldschool guys) or a zetec-engine (for the modern guys) would be a great thing.

unfortunately such a car would need to pass IVA

[oxford1360]

unfortunately such a car would need to pass IVA

Enjoyed your positive contribution as always, but like most of your previous posts, you are wrong. You are nothing but consistent.

If you followed this forum with any rigour, you would know that someone on here has taken a correctly registered Locost that has passed IVA, and rebodied it perfectly legally. Bad luck, mate.

Everyone on this forum understands that it is a stressful time for you and we are all hoping that you get the GCSE results that you deserve. Just think, another couple of years and you will be allowed to drink in a pub.

[Lucky@LeMans]

The rebody scene will continue to do well thanks to the understanding of the powers that be making allowances for such conversions. A rebody of an existing car that is correctly registered, Mot'd etc is a completely different concept to a traditional, home built, from the ground up kit car that has to be checked over for compliance at an IVA test. A rebody can be fitted to a regular production car or to an existing kit car if such a kit is available for you. As long as the kit is correctly registered the same rules apply.

[Paul L]

why should i pay so much money?

Why should anyone take the time and trouble to reply to you at all?

As you have ignored those who pointed out the flaws in the logic of your last post (1st July).

Namely, given how auctions work, at least two people thought it was worth a lot more than the guide price.

Note: I have no inside knowledge as to whether the other/losing bidder was local, UK based, or overseas.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

But in the spirit of good will…

why should i pay so much money?

Simply put, if you wanted to buy that car, in that auction, on that day, then that was the price it took to buy it.

The good news is that you are not forced to buy any car at any time.

So feel free to wait for what that you consider to be the ‘right’ car to turn up at the “right’ price.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

However, if you really do not like this style of car, why do you actually care what they sell for?

There are lots of things for sale that I am not interested in, selling for more money than I would pay.

But I wouldn’t join a forum associated with these things just to point out I think they are overpriced?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

… at the end of the day, to be honest, those kits only exist to "bypass" IVA test...

If this is what you actually think, then it is no wonder that you don’t understand the market.

These kits exist to provide a chance to drive something special for a faction of the price of an ‘original’.

The fact that these kits follow the letter of the UK law and therefore don’t require IVA is a bonus.

They don’t exist to bypass IVA, as you can’t bypass something you are not required to do in the first place.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

… there is 1 car sold totally overpriced abroad…

Don’t forget that Mister Towed sold his Herald based Sammio Spyder, in the UK, for over £18,500.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/dmonebillion/mms_20170921_1544231_zpsz823kw15.jpg

Apparently, this is just a fraction of the new owner’s car collection, clearly worth a significant sum of money.

I’m sure he wasn’t forced to buy the car, therefore he paid what he thought was a fair price, for a unique car.

So why should your opinion on these cars’ value count for more that this car collector’s opinion?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I still have a last few “To Do” list jobs on my car (e.g. add alloy panels to the cockpit interior).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/puNzsGftqAoFWLTUk3knK1yaN_00o8zHN6ltixfpHAxPu_OVdO fPRskwJUP7cAtf60DgA6HZSZfVwyPi3cj4JxDIWc0bqOfQw4qX qYkdQ-GUFMyQs3u0hgoClJbnylzI4Z22VtUjPps3sD6k-orAGMZK9KXgE4MNJ3yWDxqG1pvlsc0J9oD9qhgU1V0QDZOId_z JQgoV8vxX38Kcu8L5cOF6HC_k6ur0wFBwCpBuVCWYiESq2oRlH RvNktDjOfvRvJ681zq6jB7w9EQNxUwsEDPGtmsADMmLGhWMt4Z RRWaA_SmPCD0v9LboNMCNNu70VfV2j7tli2QMvpr1OadE-_cCrEUEtgbmy0TcApS9WnbaEdjGBPRSAoIJqcdzN5Qi_lQugwf 3RevcsHLr_A3SdaBNjJ5cLIJDd1PuabhVg1dbRsTBVPc4B3bhc-ME51mE2jgstqr-5gye63Cr32fv702giz-jKhl-eDaTmzZZm6YaTZHvTSkeR44seIh-NXNVghi91wjQg5cgF9JDZ8TC0tcNFrRD_zoXc6T9Q9Yq4XRtrf vZYJND-reENpw5gZVxqVPOc2NN2SGFL8-V4XVwepOBBpM63qbG6VjQ9cpF=w648-h863-no

Yet my insurance company have just allowed an agreed value of £15,000 based on its condition today.

My insurance company caters for the specialist car market and knows the difference between fair and overpriced valuations.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

…there is no historic value at all with those cars…

The whole point is that your car looks like it has historic value.

How much do you think this guy thought my car was actually worth?

https://youtu.be/eLS-QQwL5ss

Now, you could point out that the Black Taxi ahead of me was worth more money than my car.

And you would be both factually correct and completely missing the point at the same time.

Cheers, Paul. :)

[Mister Towed]

Can't help but chip in to agree with Oxford, Lucky and Paul. Why is anything worth anything more than the cost of its basic materials?

I mean, why would anybody in their right mind pay thirty five million pounds for an 'average' house in Kensington Palace Gardens, West London, when the cost of materials and labour to build even the most impressive house in the street would be unlikely to exceed £500k?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-most-expensive-street-kensington-palace-gardens-london-house-price-average-35-million-a7978451.html

And you must be insane to pay $450,000,000 (yes, four hundred and fifty million U.S. dollars) for an old painting of a long dead religious leader (who appears to be sponsored by Camelot, 'it could be you...'), when Leonardo reused an old canvas he'd had kicking around his studio for years and spent about five Soldinos (tuppence ha'penny) on paint.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/record-breaking-da-vinci-painting-abu-dhabi-louvre/index.html

Then back to rebody/homages/Tributes/copies of classic cars. The Lynx D Type is a rebody that uses an E Type Jag as a donor.

https://petrolicious.com/articles/this-jaguar-d-type-lynx-recreation-is-my-personal-dream-car

Okay, it's a high quality recreation and E Types are valuable classics in their own right, but I'm pretty sure Lynx don't use concourse quality cars as donors, but worn out and unloved examples in need of refurbishment and a new lease of life.

So that means that Lynx are in exactly the same category as those of us who have built Sammios, Miglias, Tributes, etc. out of old Spitfires, Heralds, Vitesses, MX5's and Z3's.

And the prices that Lynx D Types and XKSS's achieve at auction or by private treaty?

Well, in 2010 a Lynx XKSS sold for £43,000 and that was thought by some to be a lot of money for a recreation.

In 2016 one of their D Types sold for £157,500 and that was thought by some to be a lot of money for a recreation.

http://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1962-longnose-d-type-by-lynx

And today? Well, last month there was a Lynx D Type advertised in the back of Octane magazine for £330,000. Rochdale, I guess you think that's an awful lot of money for a rebody. I'm pretty sure there are people out there with deeper pockets than you (or I) who disagree and it will find a buyer at that price.

These cars, even our rebodies on humble old Triumphs, Mazdas and American built BMW's, are desirable cars in their own right. They bring joy to their builders, those who subsequently drive them and those who see them drive past.

The cash value people put on that depends on their bank balance, but there's no shortage of people who have the funds to buy a car that makes them smile but don't have the skills or time to build one themselves.

My car (the silver Spyder above) sold within a month of advertising it.

I initially turned down offers of £17k and £18.5k from a UK buyer. I turned down 20,000 Euros from two different European classic car dealers, who were both still negotiating with me when I was offered the asking price less the cost of a transporter to deliver it to one of the buyer's classic storage facilities.

Which means these cars are both desirable and will cost what you consider an awful lot of money to buy one.

So, Rochdale, how about you start a build of your own and show us what you think a decent home built kit car looks like?

[Barber]

There are tens of thousands of people around the world who buy, store and sell gold coins. Some do it for the bullion value, others see other values such as mint condition, complete sets, rare coins.

The collector who only sees bullion value would not pay much more than £193 for a gold sovereign, and there are plenty of coins of suitable condition. Those who want to have only pristine coins will pay up to £237 for what is essentially the same bullion value. Neither groups of buyers are wrong, or deluded.

The cost of building one of the triumph based re-bodies to a good standard probably totals about the same as it would to restore the original car to a very good standard. In the market place however, one is a "special" and the other is just another good example of relatively plentiful models.Different collectors or buyers will have their own criteria of what they are seeking, and what they find attractive.

The essence of these points have been stated and re-stated plenty of times, but there is only one person who does not seem able, or refuses to see the validity of the arguments that are supported by real world examples. This would suggest that RochdaleGT is either an ignoramus or a troll, or both. My recommendation is that they research this link, then follow the instructions.
https://www.someecards.com/usercards/viewcard/MjAxMi0yMDEwMzEwMDk1ZmM4OTcw/

[Mister Towed]

Just checked the ad in Octane and the Lynx D Type is actually advertised for 'only' £295,000 so £35k less than I thought (website says POA). That's about an 80% mark-up over a fully restored E Type they also have at £160,000 with the only real difference between them being the rebody.

http://ckl.co.uk/car-sales/

Should also have mentioned that only an offer within a few hundred pounds of the asking price was going to make me part with my Spyder as I would rather have kept enjoying it than given it away for less than its true value.

I also gave the new owner a written, no-strings guarantee that he could return the car to me in the same condition within one month of taking ownership and I would pay him back the full price received, I was genuinely that sad to see it go -

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/dmonebillion/P1050161_zpsgjsrhd0y.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/dmonebillion/media/P1050161_zpsgjsrhd0y.jpg.html)

So, Rochdale, I'm not going to enter into a slag-fest, but I would like to see what you can build as this is a forum for dedicated build it yourself 'special' car nuts, not trolls who just want to criticise others' proud achievements.

[Mick O'Malley]

So, Rochdale, I'm not going to enter into a slag-fest, but I would like to see what you can build as this is a forum for dedicated build it yourself 'special' car nuts, not trolls who just want to criticise others' proud achievements.+1

Regards, Mick

[Onlinesys]

Sorry to create a lot of noise over here but I guess it’s still a good thing at the end of the day where lads could express their own point of view. We only live once so just feel free to enjoy whatever we think is worthwhile. Brought the car out with another kit car and all the chaps were happy. No one even bother other normal vehicles like GT3 Touring manual, GT3RS, GT3 manual, Merc SLS. ������

[Onlinesys]

Sorry to create a lot of noise over here but I guess it’s still a good thing at the end of the day where lads could express their own point of view. We only live once so just feel free to enjoy whatever we think is worthwhile. Brought the car out with another kit car and all the chaps were happy. No one even bother other normal vehicles like GT3 Touring manual, GT3RS, GT3 manual, Merc SLS. ������

Some photos attached

[Barber]

Nice cars. I agree about expressing points of view, so long as the opinion is genuine and informed. Genuine questions are ok too.

[Paul L]

Your car looks right at home. :cool:

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5414&d=1533432765

Take care, Paul. :)

[Onlinesys]

Thanks Paul.

[scimjim]

Enjoyed your positive contribution as always, but like most of your previous posts, you are wrong. You are nothing but consistent.

If you followed this forum with any rigour, you would know that someone on here has taken a correctly registered Locost that has passed IVA, and rebodied it perfectly legally. Bad luck, mate.

Everyone on this forum understands that it is a stressful time for you and we are all hoping that you get the GCSE results that you deserve. Just think, another couple of years and you will be allowed to drink in a pub.

Best

Post

Ever

:first:

[davecymru]

Typical bad luck on my part, i wait for ages dithering if i want to sell my car or not, knowing that these come up once in a blue moon and what happens, someone else decides to sell their Miglia as well! :)

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-Miglia-2-seater-classic-historic-sports-car/113218978456?hash=item1a5c608298

Although after reading the description some of my friends said that they seem to be having a dig at me.
And possibly also accuse me of bad sportsmanship?

If they are, then i want them to know that i wish them nothing but the best in selling their car and i would certainly never try and impact another builder's chances of selling.

[jayporter]

Dave, the comment certainly wasn’t aimed at you as yours is a well finished car and we wish you all the best with yours too, it was aimed at whichever soft lad reported us to and had us thrown off eBay twice for putting “not ferrari” in the header!! Apparently you can’t put not Ferrari if it’s not a Ferrari yet there are loads on eBay and it’s really annoying when they throw your ad off. Tried to sell it 18 months ago and they threw it off so thought let’s enjoy it for a bit, then when we advertised it again they did the same, so this time being careful not to mention it at all! Hadn’t even noticed yours until after we’d relisted ours and then a friend pointed yours out and I thought the same as you “typical”! Anyway apologies if it looked like it was aimed at you but it wasn’t and i’d Love to know who did stick their beak in!!

[davecymru]

Cheers matey, i didnt realise it was yours! (Ive not been on the forum for a while due to work)

Im aware of the whole ebay/Ferrari debacle from when i played with the Lambos as its been going on for years!

Aparently ebay are VERY sensitive to any non-ferraris who use the F word in their ad or even show pictures of a non-Ferrari with a Ferrari badge showing, which is why a lot of the mr2 rebodies have to photoshop out their prancing horses or ebay just shut them down.

Anyhow best of luck with the sale, im sure you'll get a good price for its as its got some really good touches on it.

[Mitchelkitman]

Cheers matey, i didnt realise it was yours! (Ive not been on the forum for a while due to work)

Im aware of the whole ebay/Ferrari debacle from when i played with the Lambos as its been going on for years!

Aparently ebay are VERY sensitive to any non-ferraris who use the F word in their ad or even show pictures of a non-Ferrari with a Ferrari badge showing, which is why a lot of the mr2 rebodies have to photoshop out their prancing horses or ebay just shut them down.

Anyhow best of luck with the sale, im sure you'll get a good price for its as its got some really good touches on it.

That's interesting, as Ebay seem to turn a blind eye to all the classic car V5's for sale, which are a)illegal, as they are DVLA property and b)An easy way for 'ringers' (either rebuilds or stolen vehicles) to be 'legitimised' - There is a huge thread about these on Pistonheads.
A couple of years ago I advertised a bicycle part as "will fit Raleigh, Sunbeam, etc" like folk would advertise headlights as "will fit MG, Landrover etc" and my advert was deleted. Ebay is nothing but inconsistent with its rules!

[rochdaleGT]

https://www.ebay.de/itm/SAMMIO-SPYDER-TRIUMPH-Based-/163211682844?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=N90xtHs7XdPinQylI1KBeekjp04%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

auction ended with reserve not met....but a slight indicator how much people are willing to pay when there isnt anybody pushing the bids (shill bidding) or using any other "tools" for pushnig the price.

[oxford1360]

https://www.ebay.de/itm/SAMMIO-SPYDER-TRIUMPH-Based-/163211682844?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=N90xtHs7XdPinQylI1KBeekjp04%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

auction ended with reserve not met....but a slight indicator how much people are willing to pay when there isnt anybody pushing the bids (shill bidding) or using any other "tools" for pushnig the price.

Massive yawn.

[Marc F]

I think these prices stand up well - in terms of £per smile. But it is a buyer's market so anyone is free to bid or not bid.

Of course, eBay made the whole bid process more secretive, so it is hard to identify shilling nowadays, but at the end of the day one should bid what one wants to pay, no more, and then win or lose.

[micky1mo]

https://www.ebay.de/itm/SAMMIO-SPYDER-TRIUMPH-Based-/163211682844?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=N90xtHs7XdPinQylI1KBeekjp04%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

auction ended with reserve not met....but a slight indicator how much people are willing to pay when there isnt anybody pushing the bids (shill bidding) or using any other "tools" for pushnig the price.

Thats correct, 3147 hits 278 watchers , which is a personal best !!
Followed by several offers at auction end, which seams to be normal in these cases.
I have now sold the car to a French classic car dealer for a lot more than the reserve and I have no doubt he will sell it on to a customer for a even bigger return on his investment. After all that's what car dealers do !!!:icon_rolleyes:

But I agree with oxford1360 another massive yawn. :cry:

[Marc F]

Good news re your sale - I was surprised at it not going on eBay - was it just on the German site?

Anyway, nice to see the sales happening for you guys.

[micky1mo]

Marc F I think it was on E-Bay world wide as one of the bidders was based in Mexico :icon_biggrin:

[Marc F]

Would so love to have seen photos of one of our cars in Mexico!!!!

[davecymru]

JayPorters car seems to be attracting a lot of attention (must be all of the shill bidding? <- JOKE! :icon_twisted: )

There seem to be a few interested bidders and hopefully as I've listed my car for what i want for it, that should make the bidders of Jay's realise what a bargain they are getting and bid more? (Fingers crossed for you matey!)


With that in mind, i have finally relented as i never felt totally comfortable with my original advert text. Yes, i know the theory and how to market these cars has been discussed on here at length, but that advert simply wasn't me and so i have reworded mine to an ad i am now comfortable with.

I accept that others may have stuck it out and done it differently, and i totally respect you for that, and whether this affects me positively or negatively i don't know, i just know that i am happier having conversations with people based on what it's listed for now.

Fingers crossed!

[Marc F]

Sorry Dave - I hadn't realised yours was up - where is the ad?

I take that back. I have now managed to find it (my eBay search skills as rubbish as usual).

Yep, your pricing seems fair tome for a unique, well built (by hand) specialist niche car. Your build thread shows the attention to detail you put into it, so I wish you well. Sadly, out of my reach, but that doesn't make it the wrong price for your car, as even if I cannot afford it, it doesn't mean I cannot appreciate it.

Sadly, I think the detractors don't understand how much actually gets spent on these cars - donor, parts, paint etc, let alone the man hours. Perhaps if they tried to build one (as I am doing) they would have a more realistic sense of what they are "worth".

All the best - can't wait to see what you build next. Don't forget to announce it here please

Marc

[davecymru]

<BIG Sigh>

Well despite being live for a few week and having worded my advert VERY carefully as i was aware of the Ferrari ad issues, it seems that i too have fallen foul of e-bay's paranoia police by stating that i was inspired by the racing Maserati's and Lancia's of the 1950.

.... um ..... i was!
And i made no claim to the vehicle being a replica of either!

But the rules is the rules, so i've had to rewrite my advert and the new one is now up:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302872635595

<fingers crossed>

[Marc F]

Do they charge you each time you relist, or do you get a free pass if they don't like the first ad? But what happens to people who want to sell an actual replica - like a Cobra. How can you advertise that? EbAY - go figure.

Anyway, good luck again. From what I gather, the big £'s are obtained from overseas buyers - us Brits are skinflints...

[Mitchelkitman]

<BIG Sigh>

Well despite being live for a few week and having worded my advert VERY carefully as i was aware of the Ferrari ad issues, it seems that i too have fallen foul of e-bay's paranoia police by stating that i was inspired by the racing Maserati's and Lancia's of the 1950.

.... um ..... i was!
And i made no claim to the vehicle being a replica of either!

But the rules is the rules, so i've had to rewrite my advert and the new one is now up:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302872635595

<fingers crossed>
Crazy....that they should quote the rules (when you haven't claimed it was one of the cars) yet they allow V5 documents (property of DVLA) to be openly advertised, and despite complaints Ebay won't remove them.

[Marc F]

Having read their rules all I can see is if one were to stick a Ferrari badge on it. Did they give any guidance as to why "inspired by" was not acceptable?

And yep. just checked. Loads of Cobra kits on sale, most with the AC badge

Check out this one - it actually proudly declares its status as an authentic replica, that was produced in limited numbers before Shelby threatened legal action.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1957-AC-COBRA-BRA-AC-COBRA-427-7-0-500BHP-STUNNING-TRADITIONAL-RECREATION/232868947152?hash=item36381224d0:g:IYMAAOSwG9Zbf1Z 4

"This BRA 427 7.0 FORD V8 is one of the rarest Cobra replicas out there.Only 38 were produced thirty years ago before Shelby threatened BRA with legal action due to the 427's similarity to the real thing "


What am I missing here? Or is it about if someone complains?

[Mick O'Malley]

I too have fallen foul of ebay's paranoia police by stating that I was inspired by the racing Maseratis and Lancias of the 1950s.

.... um ..... I was!
I simply don't understand the inconsistency. When I sold my pre-lit Westfield I described it as a 'Lotus Seven Evocation', likewise my A352: a 'D-Type Jaguar Evocation'. Both are current vehicle manufacturers who doubtless have intellectual property rights lawyers. Perhaps some see imitation as the sincerest form of flattery, or maybe ebay hasn't got through its list yet?

Anyway, good luck with the sale Dave :)

Regards, Mick

[micky1mo]

Spotted this for sale at Beaulieu.

https://i.imgur.com/w5Iwhcgh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qFbZnpPl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dRUtNoql.jpg

Priced at 14,500 Euro.
Any one know it!!:icon_cool:

[Marc F]

Very nice.

[lancelot link]

A car that Mike at Miglia started for the German customer he built the first Miglia for ...Mike never completed it and refunded the German guy selling the car to a local guy in Swanage ...he did very little and sold it to Bisto34's German customer who employed Dave ( Bisto34 ) to finish the car for him .....

[Lucky@LeMans]

I simply don't understand the inconsistency. When I sold my pre-lit Westfield I described it as a 'Lotus Seven Evocation', likewise my A352: a 'D-Type Jaguar Evocation'. Both are current vehicle manufacturers who doubtless have intellectual property rights lawyers. Perhaps some see imitation as the sincerest form of flattery, or maybe ebay hasn't got through its list yet?

Anyway, good luck with the sale Dave :)

Regards, Mick

A work colleague built a Tribute Kobra a few years ago then sold it , eventually, through ebay. His ad was removed because someone in the Cobra Club made a complaint about his listing describing it as a Cobra replica. At the time there were several Cobra kits listed, as replica's, so my colleague asked ebay to remove them all, but they wouldn't !! Apparently his Kobra wasn't accurate enough to be described as a replica, according to the Cobra Club complainant !!
So there are some double standards going on here, or what ??

[Jaguartvr]

If it is shown on the V5 as a Cobra I don't think they could complain, if it is shown as a Kobra then it would have to be listed as a Kobra, 99% of buyers searching for a Cobra would miss it. Don't register it with a misspelt name.

[Lucky@LeMans]

His Kobra was registered as a BMW Kobra on the V5. None of the Cobra replica kits past and present will be called a Cobra by their manufacturers. However, they are all Cobra replica's, that is exactly what they are.

[davecymru]

I really HATE selling cars! Im not a salesman and i dont have the inclination towards sales.

So while ive had some lovely messages and some very interesting offers (including one for a stunning Jag that i was very tempted to accept) ive also had some very negative messages and it makes me wonder why they even make the effort just to tell me how stupid/deluded i am.

So i think that im going to give it a few more days and if it doesnt sell or i dont get a realistic offer them im going to pull it.

If anyone can recommend any companies that can sell cars on the owners behalf then please ley me know as i very nearly told the last ..... where he could stick his negative and factually incorrect message.

[Lucky@LeMans]

Try a free ad on Classic & Sports Car. A better audience all round.

[Jaguartvr]

Just ignore the idiots and don't reply, it really upsets them.
You've paid for the advert so don't let the idiots win.

[Mister Towed]

Just ignore the idiots and don't reply, it really upsets them.
You've paid for the advert so don't let the idiots win.

Ditto. Don't feed trolls and don't worry about their twisted opinions. Your car deserves to achieve a good price and there's a serious buyer out there who'll recognise that. Put it up as a classified ad and hold out for a good price - you've got nothing to lose by being patient.

[jayporter]

I wouldn't let the clowns get you down Dave, like you say "why do they bother"! We didn't get the reserve we wanted on Ebay but the Ad led to some nice interest from the continent and very similarly to micky1mo we've just waved her off to a french classic car dealer from Dumont just outside Paris for more than the reserve on Ebay, which is nice! Im sure at some point the right person will be in touch for a deal your both happy with! Cheers

[Lucky@LeMans]

Just been looking at the results from the Goodwood Revival auction that is posted on MSN at the moment. Many hand crafted cars amongst them and hardly any sold for less than £200k ! Your car might only have humble origins but so has the DNA 250 California which is listed on ebay at the moment for £99,991 !!

[lancelot link]

As the general opinion tends to be Dave ...hang in there ... The car is worth the money ...
The market is buoyant ..people are making money on classic recreations ... exactly why I have changed my approach ...tired of working hard to save people money and being shafted in the process ... I haven't seen your car in the flesh but a very similar example sold for far more at Auction ..as you know ...so look at alternative marketing , maybe ? but don't fold and allow somebody else to profit from your hard work ...

[Barber]

In any market, there are a limited number of people prepared to pay the top prices, that is how auctions work. It may be that recent sales have satiated the market. Unless there are other pressing reasons, why not wait until spring and go again?

[lancelot link]

In any market, there are a limited number of people prepared to pay the top prices, that is how auctions work. It may be that recent sales have satiated the market. Unless there are other pressing reasons, why not wait until spring and go again?

Prices may be levelling a bit ..there may be something in that ... The Admiral's Ferrari ...a gorgeous little car well documented on the internet just sold at Auction for a little over 5 million ...it just about hit reserve ...I thought it would make twice that ...

I still think Dave's car is worth more ...only other Miglia for sale at moment is 15k ..recently sold one 17k ... I'd be disappointed if he didn't get 12k +

[Mister Towed]

I just spent the weekend at Goodwood Revival. I can assure you that there was no shortage of people with huge wealth and money to burn.

Obviously those bidding on the multi-million pound cars at the prestige auction are only going to be the wealthiest of the lot, but an awful lot of the mid-range classics in the £30k - £100k bracket on the dealer stands had 'sold' stickers in the windscreens by Friday afternoon.

Also check out the prices of 'starter' classics like Spitfires and Midgets. A year ago a nice example of either would set you back around £2,500 but you need about double that today for anything even half decent, while outstanding cars are selling for £10k+. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-Midget-MK-11-1098cc-1965-Riviera-Blue/263870459437?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

I guess the problem is that if you're either:

1/ capable of building one of these specials yourself for four to five thousand, you may lose sight of the value you add with your time and skills and only be thinking of the car in terms of the cost of the parts rather than the emotional impact it has on others, or;

2/ unable to see past the 'man built it in a shed so it can't be any good' mentality, you may not be able to see the desirability of something that looks like it's worth millions but could be yours for less than the price of a new Kia Sportage.

The reality for me advertising my Spyder for £24k last year was that there were at least five serious buyers making offers around that price and it sold for very close to the asking price within two weeks. The buyer was given a money back guarantee - return the car in the same condition within one month of taking delivery and I'd give him his money back with no strings attached - but he chose to keep the car and it now lives in a collection worth tens of millions of pounds. A fitting place for a car that turns heads the way it does, despite its humble origins.

And on an even more potentially controversial note, I do find that people who don't have the funds to buy one of these cars for what it's really worth arguing about the 'overpriced' nature of them is rather like the third-class passengers on the Titanic arguing about where the toffs should be sitting in the lifeboats.

Discuss...

[Marc F]

Sounds like we need another financial crash then if entry level classics have doubled in a year.

I think specialist cars will sell well when they find their special buyer. These cars are not mainstream, and not classics. They are specials. And every now and again the right buyer will be found.

[Lucky@LeMans]

I've worked in the oil & gas OEM supply chain for the last 10 years. I was involved in the building / fitting of bespoke pumping systems. You wouldn't believe the problems trying to recruit a good team of engineering fitters that were capable, qualified and had the inclination to do that sort of work. The days of apprenticeship trained lads in their 30's and 40's came to end about
5 - 10 years ago. I'm 52 myself and I feel I'm at the end of an era ! The upside is that my skills are a valuable commodity these days, they weren't until a few years ago, that goes for my car building hobby too. If you work your hours out for a build, even at a very modest £25 - 35 / hour there are plenty of people out there with the money to spend simply because they can't do it themselves or don't have the time or inclination.
For those ill informed people out there who think our cars are "just" kit cars I usually compare them to cars coming out of the nearby Morgan works. Every Morgan is hand built by a bunch of blokes in a few sheds under the Malvern Hills. They assembly and fettle the parts by hand into a completed, bespoke car. That will usually sway the argument !

[davecymru]

Looks like i started an interesting discussion!

Thanks all for your feedback and kind words, i didn't mean to come across all emo, but it's been hectic back at work after the holidays and i (wrongly) assumed that by putting the car up on e-bay that wouldn't be another worry!
:doh:

I've now decided not to use e-bay to sell the car as while there are some great people looking on there, you're right in that it has more than it's fair share of opportunists and bargain seekers and while i expect a bit of wheel-kicking and bargaining, there was one guy in particular who got right up my nose! :boink:

Financially i'm in no rush to sell, so I could hold-off until next year, but TBH i've got loads of new projects that i want to get on with and it would be good to do them in the garage over the winter!

[micky1mo]

Your more than welcome to put your car on my web site.
www.sammiocars.com
It's not ideal but at least you'll get the right sort of people looking at it.:pop2:

[Paul L]

...there was one guy in particular who got right up my nose!...

He wasn’t based in Germany by any chance?

As there seems to be a couple of people over there with nothing better to do. :icon_twisted:

Jokes aside, I believe you were right to pull the ad and I hope you have better luck next time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

… If anyone can recommend any companies that can sell cars on the owners behalf…

Not sure if these guys do:

http://www.totalheadturners.com/

But it might be worth ringing them to see if they know anyone that does.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

.. you may lose sight of the value you add with your time and skills and only be thinking of the car in terms of the cost of the parts rather than the emotional impact it has on others, or; unable to see past the 'man built it in a shed so it can't be any good' mentality, you may not be able to see the desirability of something that looks like it's worth millions but could be yours for less than the price of a new Kia Sportage…

…Third party turnkeys will start at £25,000...no exceptions

…If you work your hours out for a build, even at a very modest £25 - 35 / hour…

These are all good points.

When I get my car looked at by a Triumph specialist, they charge over £90 an hour.

Which covers both their wages and overheads for premises, tools, etc.
( Note: I'm more than happy to pay this and think it provides value for money to me. )

This puts the £25k price Gary will charge for a ‘standard’ turnkey Formosa into context.

And remember that both the earlier Sammio & Migllia builds required more labour.

Dave – You have built more than one kit car and know what you are doing.
(Unlike me. :icon_wink:)

Your car has a lot of nice touches that take time and effort to do. :cool:

Those who want to put your efforts down or complain about the price need to get a life.

As I will keep going back to this guy’s reaction at seeing my car for the first time.

https://youtu.be/eLS-QQwL5ss

These cars are definitely worth more than the sum of their parts.

Cheers, Paul. :)

[lancelot link]

This puts the £25k price Gary will charge for a ‘standard’ turnkey Formosa into context.


Even more so when you deduct approx £10,000 for decent donor , kit , wheels , tyres , parts etc. ... deduct a further £3000 + for a quality paintjob and factor in it takes about 3 months to build one fully from start to finish ...

[Lucky@LeMans]

Looking at some of the donor cars used, that will be 3 months of hard grafting too !

[swifty]

Dave one thing I've learnt there is always people out there that will drag down any good in life.

Don't sell your car for less than it's worth, as it's been said on this thread already hang in there and the right person who appreciates the car for what it is will be happy to pay a premium for what is a one off.

If you wait until the spring you may have a bit of competition as I am thinking of putting my spyder up for sale but have no intention of letting it go for peanuts.

Good luck matey and stay possitive.

[rochdaleGT]

that one dealer from germany, mentioned above, has sold a few cars at the beginning, but now the market has realized how much those cars cost in reality.

nearly all new owners popped-up somewhere in a car forum (mostly the triumph ones), complaining how they had been ripped-off....that the car was sold to them far too expensive, they had to invest lots of money to bring it in a kind of reliable state, that the historic registration is questionable etc.

thats not a good way in dealing with those type of cars, nor is it good for the brands sammio, miglia etc.... if a dealer makes profit...thats his way of live...but if a dealer is selling something expensive, than he also needs to deliver quality...

[oxford1360]

nearly all new owners popped-up somewhere in a car forum (mostly the triumph ones), complaining how they had been ripped-off....

References please.

[rochdaleGT]

https://www.spitfire-forum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6833&p=70071&hilit=sammio#p70071

[rochdaleGT]

https://www.spitfire-forum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6926&p=70157&hilit=sammio#p70157

[rochdaleGT]

http://www.tvr-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7742

[oxford1360]

OK, rochdaleGT, my German is OK, and none of these references appear to be from people who have bought the car. Furthermore, they date from 2013, 2013 and 2015.

A lot of the comments are from someone called Micha...who will be very familiar to long-standing members of this forum - he liked to make a fool of himself. Comparing the style of English makes me wonder....could you be one and the same?

[oxford1360]

Some things never change....

http://www.thewebsofa.com/carpics/rochdale.jpg

[Mister Towed]

Hey, Rochdale, you're my kind of guy, yeah!

Clicked on your links and it was sooo good to see the German Triumph fans picking up on the Sammio Spyder and really getting the zeitgeist (I know your English ain't that good so that kinda translates as 'vibe') to the point where they've even linked to a youtube clip of my pals Phil Jacklin and Barry May's cars - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upO-OOPe91s

And, hey, they both still have their cars and both absolutely love them, despite them being built in a shed! In England! By a Britisher called Phil! Scheisse!

[Lucky@LeMans]

Great video and great cars ! That's why we love this hobby !

[Mister Towed]

Rochdale, I've just seen your Sportster over on the Marlin front suspension thread and it's a nice car.

There are a few things that aren't to my taste - I don't think the acid green over blue colour scheme works too well and I've never liked black wheels - but those are matters of personal taste.

What I'm struggling to understand, though, is how someone who owns a prototype roadster knocked together in a shed from an assortment of Ford, Rover and laying about the workshop parts, and clearly is justifiably proud of their car, can constantly and monotonously blather on about how bad other people's cars are.

Lucky is spot on with his observation above - that video epitomises the hobby, decent people enjoying their eccentric cars to the full, and if someone wants to pay quite a lot of money to join in the fun (which you seem to have done by buying rather than building your Marlin, btw) then that's their business.

[Lucky@LeMans]

Rochdale's car looks like a good example and will no doubt drive and handle very well with that powerful and light weight V8.

I'm not going to be drawn into the value vs costs vs quality. Its all very subjective and at the end of the day its between the buyer and seller, enthusiast to enthusiast. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[Mister Towed]

A lot of the comments are from someone called Micha...who will be very familiar to long-standing members of this forum - he liked to make a fool of himself. Comparing the style of English makes me wonder....could you be one and the same?

Can't help wondering myself if RochdaleGT and Micha are one and the same, but is there any evidence?

Some years ago, before he got banned from the site for being an obnoxious troll and all his posts were deleted by the moderators, Micha was asked by Psycho Pops to prove that he had the impressive car collection that he claimed to own/have owned.

His response (copied from a reply from Tribute Automotive posted 5th November 2012 on the Sammio Spyder for Sale with options... thread http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3937 ) was as follows:

to satisfy your couriosity i´m not a builder, i prefer to buy ready built cars or projects and improve them. i´m actually owning certain british made cars (e.g. scimitar, lotus, ginetta) and have owned at least another 15 lotus/tvr or kitcars.

So, quite an unusual selection of cars: Lotus, Reliant, TVR and Ginetta, plus a number of kitcars.

Now, by sheer coincidence, over on the Marlin forum http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518 I recently asked RochdaleGT to prove he owned the prototype v8 roadster that he claims to have in his extensive car collection, but can't take any pictures of, and this was his reply:

just to list some of the cars i owned (and some still own) in the last 20y:

8 lotus eclat /excel/elite, 3 TVR tasmin, 1 Rover P6, 2 Ginetta G4/S4, 1 Ginetta G15, 1 Ginetta G27, 2 Sylva Phoenix, 4 sylva striker (here you could contact jeremy phillips, the founderr of sylva autokits as a prove) , 5 westfiels, 1 sammio, 2 Reliant scimitars, 1 marlin berlinetta, 1 marlin sportster, 2 locost, 2 dutton, 1 clan crusader, 1 jeffey j5 seven, 1 fisher fury, 2 NG v8, 1 TVR chimaera, 1 jensen healey.

and several sylva´s and westfields where i was involved into the purchase from friends.

So, quite an unusual selection of cars: Lotus, Reliant, TVR and Ginetta, plus a number of kitcars.

Hmm, the collection seems to have grown a bit, but does it sound familiar?

Maybe there are two enthusiasts, both living in Germany, both claiming to own pretty much exactly the same selection of cars, both refusing to prove they own any of them and both posting rude comments here, insulting genuine builders cars, accusing them of falsifying documentation, poor build standards, getting overspray on their wheels, etc., etc. ad nauseam?

Or perhaps, there's just one sad individual with nothing better to do than cause trouble on somebody else's hobby forum, making exaggerated claims about his own specialist car history while contributing absolutely nothing positive to whatever is being discussed.

No doubt RochdaleGT will disagree with the above, citing coincidence, perhaps, and there may even be someone who'll chip in to defend him and accuse me of being the trouble maker in passive-aggressive style (and, why yes, I do have a lot of time on my hands being comfortably retired), but my mind's made up:

RochdaleGT is indeed TTFKAM, The Troll Formerly Known As Micha.

[rochdaleGT]

Can't help wondering myself if RochdaleGT and Micha are one and the same, but is there any evidence?

Some years ago, before he got banned from the site for being an obnoxious troll and all his posts were deleted by the moderators, Micha was asked by Psycho Pops to prove that he had the impressive car collection that he claimed to own/have owned.

His response (copied from a reply from Tribute Automotive posted 5th November 2012 on the Sammio Spyder for Sale with options... thread http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3937 ) was as follows:

to satisfy your couriosity i´m not a builder, i prefer to buy ready built cars or projects and improve them. i´m actually owning certain british made cars (e.g. scimitar, lotus, ginetta) and have owned at least another 15 lotus/tvr or kitcars.

So, quite an unusual selection of cars: Lotus, Reliant, TVR and Ginetta, plus a number of kitcars.

Now, by sheer coincidence, over on the Marlin forum http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518 I recently asked RochdaleGT to prove he owned the prototype v8 roadster that he claims to have in his extensive car collection, but can't take any pictures of, and this was his reply:

just to list some of the cars i owned (and some still own) in the last 20y:

8 lotus eclat /excel/elite, 3 TVR tasmin, 1 Rover P6, 2 Ginetta G4/S4, 1 Ginetta G15, 1 Ginetta G27, 2 Sylva Phoenix, 4 sylva striker (here you could contact jeremy phillips, the founderr of sylva autokits as a prove) , 5 westfiels, 1 sammio, 2 Reliant scimitars, 1 marlin berlinetta, 1 marlin sportster, 2 locost, 2 dutton, 1 clan crusader, 1 jeffey j5 seven, 1 fisher fury, 2 NG v8, 1 TVR chimaera, 1 jensen healey.

and several sylva´s and westfields where i was involved into the purchase from friends.

So, quite an unusual selection of cars: Lotus, Reliant, TVR and Ginetta, plus a number of kitcars.

Hmm, the collection seems to have grown a bit, but does it sound familiar?

Maybe there are two enthusiasts, both living in Germany, both claiming to own pretty much exactly the same selection of cars, both refusing to prove they own any of them and both posting rude comments here, insulting genuine builders cars, accusing them of falsifying documentation, poor build standards, getting overspray on their wheels, etc., etc. ad nauseam?

Or perhaps, there's just one sad individual with nothing better to do than cause trouble on somebody else's hobby forum, making exaggerated claims about his own specialist car history while contributing absolutely nothing positive to whatever is being discussed.

No doubt RochdaleGT will disagree with the above, citing coincidence, perhaps, and there may even be someone who'll chip in to defend him and accuse me of being the trouble maker in passive-aggressive style (and, why yes, I do have a lot of time on my hands being comfortably retired), but my mind's made up:

RochdaleGT is indeed TTFKAM, The Troll Formerly Known As Micha.

Mr Towed:

it seems that your only intense is to put my name in a bad light.
YOU hi-jacked the marlin thread with an OFFENSIVE forum-posting. WITHOUT any reference to the thread opener...it was just to put my posting, that i´m owing the marlin-prototpye, into a bad light and calling me a kind of liar...but you still have NOT phoned to marlin who will confirm that i´m the owner of the works-prototype.. now you try to use collected info from MY honest marlin forums´s positng AGAINST me....wow, thats not nice!!!

[rochdaleGT]

Rochdale, I've just seen your Sportster over on the Marlin front suspension thread and it's a nice car.

There are a few things that aren't to my taste - I don't think the acid green over blue colour scheme works too well and I've never liked black wheels - but those are matters of personal taste.

What I'm struggling to understand, though, is how someone who owns a prototype roadster knocked together in a shed from an assortment of Ford, Rover and laying about the workshop parts, and clearly is justifiably proud of their car, can constantly and monotonously blather on about how bad other people's cars are.

Lucky is spot on with his observation above - that video epitomises the hobby, decent people enjoying their eccentric cars to the full, and if someone wants to pay quite a lot of money to join in the fun (which you seem to have done by buying rather than building your Marlin, btw) then that's their business.

now i tell you...again something "negative": (even its MY car)

the car´s (marlin´s ) color scheme is horrible...but that was the choice of marlin during the time they built and improved the car. and its a kitcar without any "real" histotric value or any other value....its a kitcar...so why should i change it...its just wasting money... anyway...there was an owner in-between marlin and me:

when i purchased the car it was the "TYPICAL" Uk -Kitcar purchase: the owner (the one after marlin) advertized it...car did not sell (too expensive)...i told him that already when the advert was active during a long conversation....but he was stuborn....ok, i waited....finally he offered me the car for 2/3rd of the advert price (exactly the price i told him from the beginning)...we agreed a deal...i travelled to him.

it was my FIRST rover v8 powered car, i have EVER seen, heard etc...it took excatly 5 seconds after engine start that is was clear: this engine is not healthy....even my mate, who has hardly any idea about cars told me "hey that car sounds strange"

the seller was shocked...i told him "guy, i drove 1500km to you, for collecting a car and you are presenting me a v8 which runs just on 5 or max. 6 cylinders"...a shame!!!

i aksed him to touch the exhaust manifolds...so he could feel that seveal pipes where cold or only medium-warm...he agreed
(just to repeat : HE owned the car for neraly 10 YEARS!!)

it turned out that 1 spark-plug was damaged and on 2 cylinders the valve-spring retainers where cracked, the valves dropped, hit the piston and got slightly bent.

when i removed the heads and inspected the retainers by x-ray...it turned out that the damage must have accured already years ago (contacted the retainer manufacturer, they confirmed a faulty series in that years).....so the guy drove around for years with a v8 , just running on max 6 cylinders....(just to repeat : HE owned the car for neraly 10 YEARS!!) and EXACTLY this "behavior" from an owner, "living with / ignoring defects" is going through plenty of cars i have purchased in UK ....no matter which brand the car was, or which social-status the onwer had.

the repair was done with 2 new valves, new retainers all around, head gaskets and 1 day of labour....obiously the former owner had to pay for it.

and i could report ENDLESS stories from other cars, purchased over the last 20 years (not only by me....also by friends, club members etc), which show similarities. no matter if the car costs 1000pound or 20.0000 pound.... there was hardly ANY deal which did not turn out to have some severe hidden defects....mostly good for me (us), as the sellers had to pay for it.
by the way: mostly mot-relevant problems...even those cars had a fresh MOT....ALL relevant Mot stations where reported to VOSA and DVLA.


thats why i´m cirtisizing the slightest imperfections seen on web adverts, as behind all "small"defects or "honest" desciptions of defects mostly comes a serious problem...i might often be harsh and not diplomatic (truth is thruth) but my long time expireince has meanwhile come to a status where it hardly fails. maybe sometimes a bit to skeptical...but better safe than sorry.

[Mister Towed]

Hello again, Micha. It does rather beg the question, if they're all so bad, why do you keep buying them?

I'm also assuming that the law wherever you are must be different to the UK: here, unless you're buying from a dealer (and it sounds like you are working as a dealer yourself, so there are different rules here governing trade to trade sales), the price is negotiated at the point of sale and the vehicle is legally 'sold as seen' unless a different contract is put in writing. That makes the buyer responsible for the cost of any work needed to get it to the standard desired by the buyer, not the seller.

When I sold my own Spyder, as it went for a not insubstantial price (comfortably over 25,000 Euros) and the buyer didn't have the time to view it before having it collected and transported to his private collection, I gave him a written, money-back guarantee - return the car in the condition it left me within one month, and I'd hand back every penny.

The buyer hadn't asked for that guarantee and I didn't have to offer it to get the sale, I just thought it was the right thing to do given the specialist nature of the vehicle.

The buyer kept the car and it now lives among the Gods (well, some very nice classic Ferraris anyway).

Parked outside my mate Chuck Windsor's place -
http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/dmonebillion/P1050120_zpsrp4sw01p.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/dmonebillion/media/P1050120_zpsrp4sw01p.jpg.html)

Bye bye Spyder -
https://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/dmonebillion/P1050162_zps8phc01p9.jpg (https://s1186.photobucket.com/user/dmonebillion/media/P1050162_zps8phc01p9.jpg.html)

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/dmonebillion/P1050168_zpsnshc233s.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/dmonebillion/media/P1050168_zpsnshc233s.jpg.html)

Happy in its new home -
http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z371/dmonebillion/mms_20170921_1544231_zpsz823kw15.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/dmonebillion/media/mms_20170921_1544231_zpsz823kw15.jpg.html)

Before the buyer came up with an offer of the full asking price less his transport costs of a few hundred pounds, I had turned down three offers approaching 20k Euros from UK private buyers, and was considering offers of around 20k Euros from two European dealers, one Belgian and one French (maybe one of them was you?).

After it sold (within two weeks), an ad I placed in 'Octane' magazine (a must-read for any classic car enthusiast imho) went live (not a scam on my part, btw, it just took a month before they published my ad and the car had already sold), and I continued to receive contact from potential buyers from as far afield as Singapore for six months after the car went.

I guess, the moral of this rather lengthy tale, Micha, is that sometimes, a specialist car can be worth far more than the sum of its parts, and some amateur builders can actually put a really desirable car together., warts and all.

But then, if you really were as Madabout Kitcars as I am, you'd already know that, wouldn't you?

[Paul L]

Mr T - Going forward, I wouldn't waste the energy replying.

I have certainly wasted enough of my time in the past on this.

I would much rather see you posting about your Speedster build or Midget mods. :cool:

Your original Sammio Spyder 'Build' and 'On the road' treads, plus your (literally) hundreds of replies on my own build thread helped me to finish my build and get my own car on the road. And, despite its many faults, I still take great pride in the fact I built this car myself (with some professional help in places).

Cheers, Paul. :)

[peterux]

I'll sign off for good now and won't be back as I don't want to further feed the troll.


Oh really, we wish you well!:wave::wave::wave:

[Munky]

There’s lots of love all over the Internet for these cars.
I frequent this VW site and there’s some serious love for Sammio, Tribute, migila and others.

I find it interesting reading what others think to the hobby.

https://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=1492697&page=70

And if anyone thinks the state of UK cars are bad, you should come to the US. In my state, if it dives, you can drive it. No inspections. There are some real heaps crawling around on the roads!

[Mister Towed]

Just posted the below over on the Marlin thread (by accident as it happens but decided to leave it there), so apologies if you've already read it.

Hi Jeff and anyone else who's still following this debate, which is probably getting quite tiresome for all involved.

I've taken a day off even accessing the madabout site to have a think about where all this is going, how it started in the first place and who's trolling who.

This is from Wikipedia -

In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

Reading that, what I'm guilty of is getting drawn into responding emotionally to RochdaleGT (aka Micha)'s deliberately provocative posts, probably because I'm quite passionate and protective about our hobby.

If anyone cares to look, click on Rochdale's username then select 'Find all posts' and you'll see dozens and dozens of examples of an individual who repeatedly starts provocative topics, insulting other builders/owners cars without even seeing them, and criticising the UK kit car industry generally without ever contributing anything positive that couldn't just bee googled.

Check my post history and you'll find thousands of posts about building and running cars.

Okay, so you'll also find that I have, ahem, fairly strong opinions on some things and fell out with Jeff H over whether an amateur kit car builder should spray their own car or pay a professional to do it, and I should have just walked away from that when it became an all-out argument and stopped being a positive debate.

For that, and for calling you a troll, which you're not according to the definition above, Jeff H, I unreservedly apologise.

So, on reflection, the best thing I can do now is completely ignore any posts by Rohcdale/Micha, as in the grand scheme of things he really isn't going to damage our hobby by posting half-arsed insults about cars he's never seen while claiming a long, personal history of buying real lemons.

So, back to cars for me from now on, time for a quick shower then I'm off to the Brass Monkeys Run up to the North Norfolk Coast in my Midget. Hope to be making the same run in my 356 Speedster next year.

Happy New Year, Everyone!