What's the future of the Kit Industry?

[Ex-Biker]

In the 2-3 years that I have been into kit cars, I have seen many manufacturers selling on their kits and many others just going under.

Luego is just another of these.

So how can the industry get out of this?

Mainstream manufacturers and legistlation doesn't help. New cars have so many electronic components that it makes it more and more difficult to use the cars for donor parts.
Traditional donor engines are going out of production - Rover V8's and 'K' series for example.


Ideas & comments?

[kartman]

Let me throw my ideas on the fire.....

I think the Cobra and LSIS market have a future....these are designs which mainstream manufacturers are unlikely to produce a similar article. These is someway have become 'lifestyle' products (hate that word....) which people aspire to. LSIS is suffering from over supply with regard to the number of manufacturers at the moment which will shake itself out. Cobra's will start using BMW's as bases........LSIS probably MX5. Individual design (eg 5EXi/Mojo) should be OK as well.

Anything that looks like a car you can buy from a mainstream manufacturer will have a challenge. Why spend two years building something in your shed when you can spend the same (or less money) and buy something with all the R & D of a major motor manufacturer. There is the satisfaction factor, but is that enough? The next generation (I call them the Max Power bunch) do not want to get there hands dirty in the way people have in the past. They want to buy, not build. Therefore I think.....

The future lies with panel kits - either Banham style (cut the body off) or Veranti style (repanel) kits. This makes them more appealing to people who are not keen on building a complete car, and leaves the complicated mechanicals/electrics in place, so once finished has all the 'goodies' (ABS, etc) people want.

Just my thoughts of course.....

[Ferg]

I agree with Kartman, however I would add that a recent thread on a Lotus forum I occasionally visit asked the question of whether a Libra V6 offered foir sale elsewhere was worth considering. The 'informed' answers seemed to say 'no'......

I doubt ANY of the posters had driven one and unfortunately many said that the car was too expensive since a 'blah, blah, blah Elise' could be had for the same money.

They miss the point I feel. I could have bought an Elise, but I didn't want a car you see 5-10 of on the road every day and my experience of both cars almost back-to-back gave the GTM a clear edge on everything barring perhaps build quality. My excuse for this, as always, is that Lotus are a car manufacturer, I am a plumber!

Are people willing to go the extra mile for individuality a dying breed???

[Patrick]

I think people will just start adopting the new electronics. Take the people who do engine conversions. There someone on e46fanatics installing an E46 (current gernation) M3 engine complete with SMG 2 gear box in an E30 (3 generations back) shell. Just transfer that accross to the kit industry people will pick up all the electronics stuff and use it in kit cars.

[Fuoriserie]

I agree withthe previous posts, and the kit industry will survive pretty much as Kartman pointed out.

Unique designs will survive, mainstream or not different enogh will die.

ATOM, MARLIN, GINETTA, and GTM ( if they clear what they want to become in the future, a cheaper Lotus???) should survive, because the have different and unique enough designs.

GTM is trying to move upwards, wanting to abandon their KITCAR heritage, but I'm not sure they will be succesfull. They don't have the money to play with the big boys, and if they don't have it, it's better not to try otherwise you get burned!. They don't have a new Libra or an updated model ready to move up, nor the money to spend on advertising, glamour events to woo the image conscious kids that buy Lotus.

A few replicas, mainly Speedster's and Ferrari's.

LSIS and Cobra's, but cobra's should slow down due to the age group market niche it's intended for.

4x4 are almost non existant with kits, but I still like the Dakar a lot.

Three wheeler should pick up more, because ther are unique, and if manufacturers like Peugeot and VW intend to manufacture a new product by 2007, then this will mean something....

For the rest it will be harder times ahead, let's hope not too hard!!!!

[Fuoriserie]

Maybe a Michalak 7 with a Smart engine for the Max power kids, but maybe........no new designs in the kit industry that is diffent enough and has that WOW factor to buy it.

Too many old kits passed on, from one small outfit to another, with very little thought on the economics of the product.

[Fuoriserie]

Sorry, my spelling is terrible today!!!!!!

Cheers

Italo

[Ex-Biker]

I think we need to look at how the industry is marketed.

How many people each year decide they want to build a kit car?

How many of these have already built one car?

I bet 50% of builders have done it before.

I reckon less cars are manufactured each year.

We need to introduce a whole new section of buyers.

[kartman]

I think we need to look at how the industry is marketed.

How many people each year decide they want to build a kit car?

How many of these have already built one car?

I bet 50% of builders have done it before.

I reckon less cars are manufactured each year.

We need to introduce a whole new section of buyers.

That sounds like a questionnaire Mark.......?

The time between decision and purchase can be a long one.....and I believe only 1 in 4 kit cars are completed by the original purchaser...

What sector would you target for new buyers?

[Ex-Biker]

Fair point about people finishing kits.

I can understand why too as I'm in some sort of limbo in finding time to work on mine at the moment.

I think the industry needs to be marketed as an exciting alternative to a standard car.

Look at the current customising industry. This was very minimal 10-15 years ago. Now the likes of Max Power are some of the most popular mags sold. The amount some people spend on modifying their car is far in excess of what it would cost to build a kit.

Surely this is one market we should be aiming at.

Another is the track and cheap race car environment. Admittedly a fairly small market, but track day cars are quite trendy at the moment.

The question is not really what sector as how do we do it?

[kartman]

Sorry to pee on your ideas, but....

The Max Power guys are enthusiastic.....but I have found have fairly limited mechanical ability.....they tend to take most cars to a garage to have anything done.

The track day idea is OK, but with a rich market of cheap hot hatches - 205 1.9 GTi's for example - it will struggle. If you throw a GTi into the barrier, you just chuck it away and buy another for £400......

[mapper]

Do you not think the industry has strayed too far from it's roots, it used to be an alternative to scrapping a car with kn******d bodywork, putting ALL the good mechanicals into a new chassis/bodykit, a cheap replacement. Now it's bits from here and there at a premium, and, at the end albeit a decent product a pretty expensive one. Too expensive for a lot of folks. Perhaps it,s more single donor vehicle kits that are needed!!
Mark

[kitcarman]

Hi Mapper,
I think you’ve made an astute observation.
I agree that the industry has lost its way.
I’ve a theory as to why. I’ll not attempt to expound the politics but it has to do with the press being dominated by those who a) don’t have a clue whilst b) not giving a toss.
I honestly believe that things will change soon. Frankly things have got to change.
Den.

[Ex-Biker]

Are single donor kits cheaper to build?

[Patrick]

Are single donor kits cheaper to build?

I would say not judging by my Sportster build - there is always something you need to buy extra.

[Fuoriserie]

I gues it depends on the type of donor, but i agree that even if it's a single donor kit, you will always need that extra bit coming from somewhere else.

Maybe more single donor kits should be designed, but as said earlier, the marketing might help but the economics need to add up.

The kitcar manufacture needs to make a decent profit to stay in business, and the kit enthusiast needs to get a fair price on the kit, with quality to match.

If you can make the equation work, design, quality and economics, then you will have new products coming in, otherwise same old, same old.....

New thinking, new ideas and maybe new people?....

[Ex-Biker]

Italo

I know we agree on a lot of stuff.

Some of your designs would offer some new interest towards the industry.

[Fuoriserie]

Mark

I Know we do, but maybe now we need KITCARMAN to help and point the kit industry to way forward, create a new section of the magazine to new designs and ideas, marketing ideas, new technology, alternative fuels.

Create a design competitions, have each kitcar manufacture supply their chassis design, and have everyone participate with design proposals.

Have on each Kitcar show a design competition, have a given subject, and then show the design concepts to the Manufacturers and the public, and by doing this you can gauge the publics reactions to novelty,and understands their future wants and needs.

Maybe have a Kitcar association that promotes and lobbies this industry at the European Union, so that future regulations don't strangle it with stringent laws.


Kitcars could be perfect venue to start a new era on alternative fueled cars , you could start with CNG conversions, and have technical write ups on new technologies. These are niches, but the kit industry is a niche, so they would both gain from this reciprocal exposure.

Fuel prices will be flying through the roof in the next 2/3 year,s and alternative fueled kitcars could be an interesting niche to explore.

We can all contribute dozens of interesting and new ideas to this beloved industry, but there needs to be a will, that i'm afraid is lacking on both sides at the moment, on all camps i might add.............

I believe that if it wasn't for the Kitcar clubs, that do a great marketing job for the manufacturers, many wouldn't even survive a few months in the kit world.

Kitcarman tell us what you think... be kind...

Cheers

Italo

[Ex-Biker]

Well I like those ideas.

. . . . Den ? 8-)

[kitcarman]

OK Chaps,
Let me ponder.....

Den
(....or is the correct word 'stew'?)

[kartman]

Do you not think the industry has strayed too far from it's roots, it used to be an alternative to scrapping a car with kn******d bodywork, putting ALL the good mechanicals into a new chassis/bodykit, a cheap replacement. Now it's bits from here and there at a premium, and, at the end albeit a decent product a pretty expensive one. Too expensive for a lot of folks. Perhaps it,s more single donor vehicle kits that are needed!!
Mark

Think the nearest we will get to this in the future is Banham style kits - where an existing car is rebodied.

[Ex-Biker]

Think the nearest we will get to this in the future is Banham style kits - where an existing car is rebodied.

Car do last a fair bit longer these days before rusting away . . . .

[kitcarman]

Cars do last a fair bit longer these days before rusting away . . . .
Which is one of the many problems that the Kit Car industry is facing; it would be good to turn this vice into a virtue.

Den.

[Ex-Biker]

Just thinking - there's plenty of people crashing their cars though.

Especially the likes of 106's & Saxo's.

Wonder if ther is a market for a kit based on one of these.

Most younger people are insured tpf&t, so are often left with a wreck with nothing to do with it.

A cheap kit based around the remains might work . . .

[kartman]

Didn't Robin Hood experiment with a Saxo based car - 'One-O-Sax' I believe?

This was a body kitted Saxo with a Rover turbo engine......but didn't get to the production stage.

Older cars, which remain structurally sound could provide a good, cheap base for a conversion.....as Kitcarman says turn this into a virtue.

Unfortunately the younger generation have a lack of mechanical ability, and if they were to smash their car up on TPF&T, they would just get a loan and buy another one....

[Ex-Biker]

You don't think a Saxo based kit would work then?

I'm not thinking a rebody now, more a plentiful, single donor vehicle.

What if 'younger generation man' smashed his car up, then instead of getting a loan for another one, he got a loan for a kit? Or better got a loan so a manufacterer could build his 'kit' from his old car?

If average 'younger generation man' spends £4k on his car and he could get a unique car for this cash, wouldn't he at least consider it?

This brings us to the point of bringing down the cost of a kit. After all how much does it cost for a piece of fibreglass?

[Fuoriserie]

A metro rebody, but it could be a peugeot 106 or saxo rebody,

http://www.356sports.co.uk/356_sports-speedster-gallery.htm

But in case you wanted to update the design of the 356 you wouldn't encounter design infringement laws.....

That is the old banham speedster conversion....

[Fuoriserie]

and the pricing for their more complete is very interesting:

Stage 2
GRP bodywork in grey gelcoat finish consisting of front and rear body halves, pair of double skinned doors, bootlid, engine cover and headlamp buckets - £1595


I could immagine a complete build for 4000 to 5000 P., maybe????, but if you updated the design a little you would have a very interesting speedster for the price of a lame hatchback!!

Maybe conversions could be one a solution....

[Patrick]

I consider myself in the "younger generation" bracket as I'm 26, my brothers 22 :)

I personally dont like max power cars, very few are tastefully done.

I started with no mechanical knowledge of cars other than the very basic pressure and fluid level checks. I decided to build a kit mainly for the experiance and then have a excellent weekend/summer car when its done. It also gives me a test bed to experiment with tuning when its done - nothing worse than having your daily driver on axel stands when you need it! Insurance also seems a bit more lenient towards power modifications and the whole thing is custom anyway!

[Fuoriserie]

Electric kitcar conversions:

http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_html_home.htm

[Fuoriserie]

try this one:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/07/diy_electric_ca.html

[Fuoriserie]

alternative fuels :

http://www.greasecar.com/index.cfm

[Fuoriserie]

A fantastic looking Dakar 4x4 , Discovery conversion:

http://www.dakar4x4.me.uk/

great design and conversion, I'd like to have one

[kartman]

After all how much does it cost for a piece of fibreglass?

Don't get me started!!!.......if it costs say £20K in time & materials to develop a body shell (a not unreasonable amount...) and you sell 50 (a good number) it will still be £400 per body in development costs.

Perhaps Kitcarman can give better detail on this....

[kartman]

A metro rebody, but it could be a peugeot 106 or saxo rebody,

http://www.356sports.co.uk/356_sports-speedster-gallery.htm

But in case you wanted to update the design of the 356 you wouldn't encounter design infringement laws.....

That is the old banham speedster conversion....

And the complete project was recently available on Ebay.....perhaps you could become a manufacturer Italio?

[Fuoriserie]

naaaaaaaah!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not good with math !!!!!

[Fuoriserie]

Just in case you had n old mercedes laying about in your backyard....

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=848531&page=1

[kartman]

Nice, but you would want to pay £1500 for the kit, Italio......:whistle:

[Ex-Biker]

Nice, but you would want to pay £1500 for the kit, Italio......:whistle:

If we were talking about £1500 on top of the car you have just written off being the total cost, then I think you'll find people who are interested.

If a kit company could offer 'Mr I've just written off my Saxo' driver a full kit build service inc the new kit for £2500 - £3000, I think they'd be on to a winner.

[kartman]

Can I refer you to my earlier post.....

Unfortunately the younger generation have a lack of mechanical ability, and if they were to smash their car up on TPF&T, they would just get a loan and buy another one....

I think a 'Banham' style cheap kit is the future.....BUT.....I dont think this is the right target market....they want the car instantly, not spend a year building it.

[Ex-Biker]

If a kit company could offer 'Mr I've just written off my Saxo' driver a full kit build service inc the new kit for £2500 - £3000, I think they'd be on to a winner.

3 weeks build time?

[kartman]

Rant warning.......:yell::rant::eusa_wall:

£2500 - £3000 including build!!!! Have they put something in the water down there in Cornwall!!!!!:nono:

Lets do some basic figures......

Say you want to earn £18K per year doing this....thats £1500 per month.

If you build one every three weeks, that is £1125 per car.

Plus workshop rent......say £400 per month (v cheap) thats £300 per car.

Heating, light, business rates, phone, etc..... say £200 per month...., thats £150 per car.

Car development cost.(inc moulds).....say £20K (again....v.cheap), and you produce 50 cars, thats £400 per car......

So where are we......£1500 + £300 + £150 + £400 =£2350

Thats without actually making a body, etc, marketing, profit.......see where this is heading?

Sorry, it just ain't gonna happen..... :eusa_snooty:

[kitcarman]

Trevor,
I agree with you.
There’s no way I can see that any kit car can be supplied assembled for anything like a realistic price.
Labour is too expensive and expectations too high.
Den.

[Fuoriserie]

I agree with what was said by Kartman and Kitcarman,
but that is why we need some creative marketing to bring kitcars or conversions, to this new crowd of potential owners.

How to, I don't know, but I can only draw...........

[JG]

.... that is why we need some creative marketing to bring kitcars or conversions, to this new crowd of potential owners.

How to, I don't know

Judging by the crowds at the recent Stoneleigh show do we need to. It seemed in fine fettle to me.

John

[kartman]

Judging by the crowds at the recent Stoneleigh show do we need to. It seemed in fine fettle to me.

John

Really?????

Not what I saw......and the general vibe in the industry.

[JG]

Ok, what I meant was that from the publics point of view the interest is still there judging by the amount of people that turned up on the Sunday so all hope is not lost. (can't comment on the Monday as I wasnt there)

Where there is interest there is hope.

John

[Ex-Biker]

Would be interesting to compare the numbers over the last 5 years.

[Ferg]

I think I'd have to agree with John, Trevor.
The show very rarely gives me a major buzz...hasn't since the halcyon days of the eighties when there were always loads of new kits to see, but this year I spent longer in the halls looking at cars than the last three years at least. TeamGTM was very busy and although we had a couple fewer cars this year at the maximum of 36, they came and went continually. Pehaps they couldn't find the factory stand........

...and 20 odd people camping!!!

[kartman]

OK Ferg......so you spent a lot of time in the halls compared to previous year.

What NEW stuff did you see? What I noticed was that there was a lot more accessory stands in the main hall than previous years - for example the stand I had last year was now occupied by an accessory company, PPC mag had a large stand in one hall, etc.

This means there was less manufacturers, which is not good news.

There may be a 'buzz' from the number of people attending, but if manufacturers don't feel it is worth attending to show their products, something is wrong.

[JG]

Anybody want to rethink that panel kits are the future?

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/images/ridecars.jpg

:puke:

John

[Ex-Biker]

Anybody want to rethink that panel kits are the future?

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/images/ridecars.jpg

:puke:

John

That'll be the MR2 re-body then.

[Fuoriserie]

the Veranti is great looking conversion for the Toyota mr2, and you could create various body shapes over the mr2, maybe I should sketch something before i say something......

[kartman]

Anybody want to rethink that panel kits are the future?

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/images/ridecars.jpg

:puke:

John

I did say in concept....not necessarily execution. I'm with you on this one JG....:shocked:

[andy]

IMO the key is Adding value.

The popular 7 concept takes a clapped out cheap car and turns it into a very special little car that nothing can come close to for the money..... thus clear Added value.

at the other extreme an Ultima takes parts that a readily available at reasonable money and puts together a package of performance and looks that you have to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds more to buy its mainstream rivals..... thus clear Added Value

The replicas demonstrate this in the Kit market as well..... Cobra replicas sell well as they can be built for loads less and a higher spec than an original would cost, wereas to build a Diablo replica to the same spec won't be much shy of a 2nd hand real one.. hence they don't sell as well (even though we lust after them).

With the arrival of production cars like the Elises, VX220's, Ariel Atom etc kit cars have lost the monopoly on cheap, extreme, fast cars.

[Fuoriserie]

another interesting conversion? :

http://360.illuder.com/forum/index.php?topic=13.0

[Fuoriserie]

How about a Ford fiesta based Dube Buggy......

http://www.stimsondesigns.com/index2.php?link=buggypics

I guess you could do this with any FWD modern hatch.

[Fuoriserie]

Just an idea for the Kit industry Publications.......


http://kitcarmag.com/projectbuild/142_0409_ecocat/


Why not do something similar in Europe?

[Mawrum]

Good news

[lambogenie]

OK Ferg......so you spent a lot of time in the halls compared to previous year.

What NEW stuff did you see? What I noticed was that there was a lot more accessory stands in the main hall than previous years - for example the stand I had last year was now occupied by an accessory company, PPC mag had a large stand in one hall, etc.

This means there was less manufacturers, which is not good news.

There may be a 'buzz' from the number of people attending, but if manufacturers don't feel it is worth attending to show their products, something is wrong.

Maybe, just maybe the manufacturers can't justify the cost of the stands! Any body know if they are expensive? Perhaps one way to attact more manufacturers to each show would be to lower the cost of the stands and put say 50p on the public entrance price. I think this would up the attendance figures and give a better show for the public.

[Patrick]

IIRC Stands are expensive and can run anywhere from a few 1000 to into the 10000 mark depending on how its made and whats involved (based on what I've seen on the consumer electronics side of things!)

[lambogenie]

Thats probably why kit manufacturers are short on the ground at recent shows then!

[kitcarman]

IIRC Stands are expensive and can run anywhere from a few 1000 to into the 10000 mark depending on how its made and whats involved (based on what I've seen on the consumer electronics side of things!)
Actually Patrick,
Stands at Kit Car shows cost about £250 each.

Den

[Patrick]

Actually Patrick,
Stands at Kit Car shows cost about £250 each.

Den

My mistake, I guess the electronics industry pays a lot more! Or more likely they just have more to spend :)

[lambogenie]

I take it one car will fit onto a £250 stand?? Most manufacturers have three or four cars to show? £1000 pounds please! Ching ching!! I'm in the wrong game ! Three or four car shows a year, advertising in a couple of mags and profit gone, unless you have a high end car like the Ultima selling for big bucks/profit.
How much does it cost to run say a quarter page advert for a year in your mag kitcarman out of interest?

[kitcarman]

How much does it cost to run say a quarter page advert for a year in your mag kitcarman out of interest?

As a one-off, a quarter page costs £150 plus vodka and tonic, but if booked as a series for a year it comes down to £100 (or even less if Tom’s arm is twisted).

[lambogenie]

Four or five grand on shows and £1200 for mag! Plus overheads of business premises...Mmmm. Don't envy the manufacturers!

[kitcarman]

Four or five grand on shows and £1200 for mag! Plus overheads of business premises...Mmmm. Don't envy the manufacturers!
Actually, to run any business, the businessman has to put that sort of money (and more) into advertising and promotion.
The fact is that, if anything, kit car advertising rates and exhibitions are very cost-effective. What’s more; those companies who take advantage of it are those who prosper.
Advertising and promotion is as an important part of the success of a business as its staff and materials. Without all three the company will not prosper.
Den.

[Ex-Biker]

Four or five grand on shows and £1200 for mag! Plus overheads of business premises...Mmmm. Don't envy the manufacturers!

That is very cheap.

Our company will spend £20k on advertising /yr, plus extras for trade stands, merchandising and marketing.

A half page ad in most mags will be more like £1200 / issue.

What’s more; those companies who take advantage of it are those who prosper.

This is fully understandable. It is marketing that sells products just as much as quality and value.
If you are not aware something is available, you'll never buy it!
If your marketing is trendy, your product is, therefore more people will buy it.
So does the future of the kit car industry lie with the magazines and the way the industry is marketed?

Sorry Den, but b*tchin' ain't marketing.

[kitcarman]

So does the future of the kit car industry lie with the magazines and the way the industry is marketed?
It certainly lies with the way the industry is marketed. I believe that the magazines play a very important part in that. Lying magazines haven’t helped….



Sorry Den, but b*tchin' ain't marketing.
Hmmm… without stirring up a hornet’s nest, my campaign hasn’t been as mindless as your terminology suggests.

Was my spilling the beans the cause of the problem, or the first stage of its cure? I’d like to think that I’ve straightened a bent press – by alerting readers to the fact that beyond the gloss and hype there are real issues.

Standing up for what’s right has cost me dearly but I got there in the end! Now, from a position of financial strength, and having regained my personal confidence, I’m moving forward in promoting this industry. The A to Z Guide presently appearing in Kit Car, at 400+ pages when complete, will be the biggest publication this industry has ever seen. I think it will get people drooling and breath new life into the Kit Car industry.

I’ll be following it up with further innovative marketing in the New Year.

Den.

[Ex-Biker]

Den

You know I am not saying you were right or wrong in what you set out to achieve etc. My point relates more to newcomers and others that want to read a mag.

If you were new to kit cars, say you had just visited TKC Live and got very excited about the prospect of buying a kit.

Off you go to WH Smiths to buy a mag. Which one would you buy?



Why?








Marketing (magazine) can be geared towards many things. One of which is the appearance & layout. The first thing that attracts anyone is the cover, so this has to jump out at you.

Next most people pick up the mag and flick through. So pictures need to be a good quality, attractive to look at and a good selection need to be on the right hand page. I also like the highlighted text. I know its a filler, but it gives you the gist of a story, thus gaining interest.

What you don't want to draw a browser's attention to is anything that would turn them off reading it. I believe this is one of the things that has happened to the main mags in the industry.

I know this is common knowledge to any publisher (and many of the public), but it's always worth revisiting your ideals on how the mag should look and take into account some trends from mags in other sectors.

Den, this ain't a dig, hopefully it's constructive to everyone.

BTW, I look forward to the 'innovative marketing' in the new year

[lambogenie]

[QUOTE=Ex-Biker]Den

Next most people pick up the mag and flick through.
What you don't want to draw a browser's attention to is anything that would turn them off reading it.

So i'm not alone when I flick through a mag to see if I wish to purchase it? Maybe you would increase sales if you removed the covering Den? What am I saying, you've got more money than you can spend now! £1200 x 50 adverts = :shocked: How much!! Ha Ha

[Ex-Biker]

So i'm not alone when I flick through a mag to see if I wish to purchase it? Maybe you would increase sales if you removed the covering Den? What am I saying, you've got more money than you can spend now! £1200 x 50 adverts = :shocked: How much!! Ha Ha

How much? Not a lot from what I see.

How much do you think it costs to produce a magazine?

[rushturbo]

The Host site has no interest in the kit car market, their business is display space.
As for the cost of stands, i had 2 days at Earls Court this year £7,500 was my share. The stand was shared between 7 of us!!

Manufacturers need to improve there product, get them right up to date with tecnology, even if it means a much higher purchase price.

Fast, Lightweight & cheap in comparison to the new car market.

Cheap, out dated parts have no appeal

[kartman]

Fast, Lightweight & cheap in comparison to the new car market.

When you have worked out how to achieve this impossiblity please let all the manufacturers know......

I have been through it before.....simple production numbers mean that to develop a car/kit which is only going to have say 20 units produced a year will have a massive R&D cost per unit, so they wont be 'cheap'.

Mainstream manufacturers can do it due to the massive production numbers.

[rushturbo]

Compare cost's of a kit car to your mainstream, they are peanuts. They can afford a price hike.

There are different points of view as to cost vs qaulity.

From what I understand, the best selling 7 is the most expensive.

Cheap does not always sell. How does a 3 series bm out sell a mondeo in a year?

Development does not need to be that expensive. Kits are relatively simple manufacturing processes.

[Fuoriserie]

When you have worked out how to achieve this impossiblity please let all the manufacturers know......

I have been through it before.....simple production numbers mean that to develop a car/kit which is only going to have say 20 units produced a year will have a massive R&D cost per unit, so they wont be 'cheap'.

Mainstream manufacturers can do it due to the massive production numbers.

Yep. I agree with you on this, it's a very difficult equation to solve......but creative thinking and ideas can help, and using existing chassis and cloth them with a different shape, is cheaper than design a new model all together.

Maybe you need to show your readers a few design ideas, and challenge the industry with something new, just by using an existing chassis manufactured by any kit manufacture.

The TONIQ-R project shows what you can do with your locost chassis...., but any chassis could do.

Why don't you run a design contest.
"Design a new and simple kit " using a cheap simple donor, a locost chassis, or any chassis.
Or rebody an existing car....

You set the rules, you could even run it in your next issue...:D

[kartman]

Development does not need to be that expensive. Kits are relatively simple manufacturing processes.

:rant::frusty::eusa_wall::rant::target::eusa_wall: :frusty:

Den.......help me out here......I cant find the words....

[rushturbo]

Could end up with hundreds of drawings of concept cars which would never reach production of any form.

How about some builders devepment pages??

You could invite actual conversions that have been done and rate them on their merits. All builders are responsible for development as we develop small changes from the manufacture's spec, could be use change of clips upto chassis changes.

Take any chassis and put 10 complete cars together, none are the same, and there sure will be some improved build on some models, which the manufacturers have never seen.

One of the largest part of development is feedback from manufacture's services, weakest areas etch. the manufacturers use this to target areas for improvement to the product.

Kit manufacture's miss out on a lot of this valuable feedback. As they have no hand in the build or servicing

[kitcarman]

Hi Mark,
I know that we’re singing off the same hymn sheet, but was concerned that certain onlookers wouldn’t understand what you meant by “Sorry Den, but b*tchin' ain't marketing”.

I know that what was said was difficult to comprehend, but it’s done now and it’s been effective. There can’t be many who are unaware of the fact that certain titles can’t be read at face value on certain topics and, I think, people are now equally aware that one magazine leads the field by a country mile.

That’s one of the reasons why the new Kit Car Guide is such a success. It’s being supported by manufacturers who only a year ago would not have wanted to be in it. Of the 100 models featured so far, only 3 haven’t contributed toward its cost (one of those was Bugrat).

My point is that even if I’ve been “ b*tchin'” it HAS served as marketing. To be taken seriously in this industry, I had to undo the cumulative effect of a decade of lies about me. Those lies were debilitating both from a personal perspective and had financial ramifications.

Setting the record straight is not all that I’ve done. I simultaneously made the magazine bigger, improved the technical journalism by recruiting Nigel and put considerable effort into ‘marketing’ to those who stock magazines.

Strides have been made too in the areas you’ve just mentioned. The covers have been better, as has been the photography and layouts. I honestly believe that newcomers will get a better impression of the industry than previously.

What I’m saying, Mark, is that I’m doing my very best to improve the industry’s image. The messy situation of putting Fib’s in his place was a necessary part of the overall package, because not only do the mags have to look good, but they have to be trustworthy too – otherwise they’re about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

So i'm not alone when I flick through a mag to see if I wish to purchase it? Maybe you would increase sales if you removed the covering Den?
Twice this year we’ve bagged the mag in order to enclose free catalogues. If this troubles you: you only need open the bag in the shop – many do! On both occasions our sales increased!

There are different points of view as to cost vs qaulity.
There are indeed, and I’ll look particularly favourably at any kit which offers a reasonable product for a reasonable price. However, and I’ve said this before, honest magazines report what they find: rather than find what they report.

In compiling the new guide; I see various new development trends. It’s only a matter of time before one or more of them become ‘trendy’ as was the case with beach buggies in the 1970’s, the Duttons of the !980’s and many replicas of the 1990’s. As then, early examples were less attractive than later, more refined, models.

You set the rules, you could even run it in your next issue...:D
Hi Fuoriserie,
Please don’t burden poor ole Kartman with publishing responsibilities. So far as I’m aware he isn’t a publisher (yet)…. although there might be a rag for sale soon!!!!

Den

[Fuoriserie]

Hi Fuoriserie,
Please don’t burden poor ole Kartman with publishing responsibilities. So far as I’m aware he isn’t a publisher (yet)…. although there might be a rag for sale soon!!!!

Den

Late night and tired......
I'm very sorry kartman....:embarassed:, This was intended for Kitcarman, and Den thanks for pointing out my big mistake.

But what do you think of the Design contest idea?...:)

[Ex-Biker]

Just a thought, but would this attract a wider market to the industry?

If a certain magazine had a stand at a show like Max Power (it could be any similar show) and shared the cost with 1-2 manufacturers that would be interested in selling to such a market.

You could show 2-3 cars that would wipe the floor (in terms of performance) compared to 95% of the other cars at the show.

I can see the issue being that these people don't want to 'build' their own car, but with the amount they are willing to spend on a Corsa (eg) they could afford to buy a turnkey vehicle.

To attract the audience further as an insurance company to give you some example quotes that could be displayed on posters (at the insurance Co expense).

Acting as a group it would also be possible to have a loan company come on board for individuals looking to buy turnkey cars then you would have no problems with payment etc.

Just a thought, any comments?

[kartman]

Please don’t burden poor ole Kartman with publishing responsibilities. So far as I’m aware he isn’t a publisher (yet)…. although there might be a rag for sale soon!!!!

Den

Now there is an idea........I have had a try at manufacturing, maybe I should have a go at publishing.....??????

[rushturbo]

There are indeed, and I’ll look particularly favourably at any kit which offers a reasonable product for a reasonable price. However, and I’ve said this before, honest magazines report what they find: rather than find what they report.

If you want a broad customer base, you need to offer a broad product. From a basic cheap as chips Kit upto the maxpower race spec Kit with a very high price tag.

I look at some reports in comparison to cars (looks, style & performance etch) and it leads me to believe they are nothing more than paid advertising.

Please note; i refer to mags in general and none in particular!

[rushturbo]

If a certain magazine had a stand at a show like Max Power (it could be any similar show) and shared the cost with 1-2 manufacturers that would be interested in selling to such a market.

Good Option.

The most effective way a car can get advertised is via their performance standards.

For very little cost, Santa Pod offers a huge market, where a Kit can prove it's performance and the manufacturers can have a real good time in doing so.

[andy]

Just a thought, but would this attract a wider market to the industry?

If a certain magazine had a stand at a show like Max Power (it could be any similar show) and shared the cost with 1-2 manufacturers that would be interested in selling to such a market.

You could show 2-3 cars that would wipe the floor (in terms of performance) compared to 95% of the other cars at the show.

I can see the issue being that these people don't want to 'build' their own car, but with the amount they are willing to spend on a Corsa (eg) they could afford to buy a turnkey vehicle.

To attract the audience further as an insurance company to give you some example quotes that could be displayed on posters (at the insurance Co expense).

Acting as a group it would also be possible to have a loan company come on board for individuals looking to buy turnkey cars then you would have no problems with payment etc.

Just a thought, any comments?


My thoughts exactly, I think i mentioned that I took my Ultima to a few max power events at the Pod etc and it even got pictures published... and posted Unrivaled times in class although that wasn't published.

Many of the cars at these events cost more than our kits and it's defiantelly a potential market.... especially when you mention to them that the car may actually be worth what they spend and that it'll be a fraction to insure etc.

[kitcarman]

I realise that performance is one area in which certain kit cars prevail, but the vast majority of kit cars are not primarily aimed at the performance market (even if they have the appearance of a performance vehicle).

For example, there are at least 20 kits based on a WV floorpan (mostly 356 replicas and beach buggies). There are several body conversions which in many cases end up heavier than their base vehicle. Some of those are clearly made for off-road activities. Speaking of which there are a plethora of off-road buggies and cars (Bugrat, MEV, Outbak to name a few). Then there are still a few traditional roadsters available (Beauford, Marlin Sportster, Javelin Cabrio and Regal to name some). What about three wheelers and replicas of classics (the replica aspect being, I guess, their predominant appeal). Then there are a few plan-built offerings (where, I guess, the task of building is more the attraction than the joy of driving). Let’s not forget that there are a whole group of 2CV, Herald and Spitfire based kits (for which, presumably, the owners must place performance pretty low down on their list of priorities). Even in respect to the real ‘performers’ of the industry, it’s a low proportion that end up assembled with the most powerful motor in the range.

My point is that the attraction of kit cars must go way beyond this one aspect – evidenced by what’s actually available. A group of kit cars attending a sports or racing car show is not, in my humble view, going to make any significant difference to the fortunes of this industry as a whole.

I’m not trying to P155 on anyone’s fireworks, but merely trying to get us to focus on the wider problem of getting the word about the whole range of kit car types onto the streets.

Den

[Ex-Biker]

My point is that the attraction of kit cars must go way beyond this one aspect – evidenced by what’s actually available. A group of kit cars attending a sports or racing car show is not, in my humble view, going to make any significant difference to the fortunes of this industry as a whole.

Den

Den

Anything that shows the industry in good light is a step in trhe right direction.

Even selling to the Max Power brigade, it doesn't mean they'll all buy the most powerful.

[andy]

but even if your into kit cars if you lust after a dax rush or an Ultima then you are also unlikelly to be interested in beetle based kits etc....
I'd say the modded scene is larger than the kit scene so I recon its a huge potential market and loads of kits would fall into the right hole for these guys.

Also a large part of the modded scene is all about looks and not performance (due to insurance) and often the cars are also much heavier than std.

[Fuoriserie]

I'd say the modded scene is larger than the kit scene so I recon its a huge potential market and loads of kits would fall into the right hole for these guys.

Also a large part of the modded scene is all about looks and not performance (due to insurance) and often the cars are also much heavier than std.

That is why a few of us thought about rebodies, using an Mazda mx5 or a Toyota mr2 car, and rebody it with a new shape.
This was considered one of the easiest and fastest option to tap into the MAX Power crowd, because you would have very little building, compared to a real kitcar.

Unfortunately the feedback from the die-hard kitcar enthusiast, or people in the business was lukewarm, or plain cold.
I think kitcar manufacturers perceive rebodies as low rent........

I think that the industry is too conservative and maybe a new generation of younger kitcar manufacturers are needed to change things....till then moderate change but nothing more.

This will remain a very little niche for the years to come.....

[AndyDane]

Moving away from the magazine and publicity discussions for a moment I think the industry as a whole needs to recognise what someone else alluded to a few pages ago - it's a generation thing and tinkering with dirty cars. I'm 32 and have never really had to work on a car. I've had a few cars since I was 18 and have never really got further in than replacing brake discs/pads, alternators, bonnet, etc etc.

There are too many people like me who don't really know anything about cars. I bought a Marlin Sportster and 2 reasons were;
1; Marlin gave me the impression it was a fairly straightforward build
2; to learn more about cars engines etc.

I've now "given up" and am paying Vindicator to finish it for me, not cheap but I still want the car to drive!

I think the industry needs to
be more honest to potential buyers as to exactly what is involved;
create FAR better build manuals;
have far better support services - -i.e. you can ring up and ask stupid questions because you simply don't know without being made to feel a fool.

This isn't a dig at Marlin as they have been very helpful but I can get info targetted more at my level of competence and understanding from forums.

I just think that with modern more reliable cars (I drive a 5 year old 90,000 mile mondeo thats never needed more than a service) manufacturers might need to offer "simpler" solutions

Anyone agree or disagree?
Andy

[andy]

I agree with you on your point, people tend to tinker with their daily driver less than days gone by.

Also more often new builders are fed exagerations on how much skill, time and money it takes to build by the kit builders and also how well developed the kit is.

One major benefit to the industry recently IMO is the forums and private build sites, these can be invaluable to any builder and should be encouraged by manufacturers, However I do know some ask their builders not to do a site so they don't look bad which is a worry.


(I am deliberatelly not refering at all to my last kit)

[Ex-Biker]

Moving away from the magazine and publicity discussions for a moment I think the industry as a whole needs to recognise what someone else alluded to a few pages ago - it's a generation thing and tinkering with dirty cars. I'm 32 and have never really had to work on a car. I've had a few cars since I was 18 and have never really got further in than replacing brake discs/pads, alternators, bonnet, etc etc.

There are too many people like me who don't really know anything about cars. I bought a Marlin Sportster and 2 reasons were;
1; Marlin gave me the impression it was a fairly straightforward build
2; to learn more about cars engines etc.

I've now "given up" and am paying Vindicator to finish it for me, not cheap but I still want the car to drive!

I think the industry needs to
be more honest to potential buyers as to exactly what is involved;
create FAR better build manuals;
have far better support services - -i.e. you can ring up and ask stupid questions because you simply don't know without being made to feel a fool.

This isn't a dig at Marlin as they have been very helpful but I can get info targetted more at my level of competence and understanding from forums.

I just think that with modern more reliable cars (I drive a 5 year old 90,000 mile mondeo thats never needed more than a service) manufacturers might need to offer "simpler" solutions

Anyone agree or disagree?
Andy


Definately agree.

Even with the likes of Caterham, who supply every nut & bolt, it is not exactly like building an airfix kit.

I see a market where manufacturers could supply part built or near finished cars, where the owner can then individualise their kit with seats, wheels, etc.

[kitcarman]

Moving away from the magazine and publicity discussions for a moment…..
Hi AndyDane
I’m not sure this is moving away from the subject of magazines.

Part of what you are saying is that you weren’t properly informed about the true difficulties of building a kit car. The supplier was hardly likely to tell you the true extent of the problems – was he?

The magazines haven’t told you either: but is that really surprising? We’re in an industry in which two out of three of the magazines are published by people who’ve never built a kit car, have no plans to build one, no inclination to build one and no ability to build one. So, how would they know what’s expected of a builder? How could journalists of that kind offer any kind of practical advice? When they do, what basis is there for trusting their opinions?

When they recommend this kit over that one, or vote a particular vehicle “kit car of the year” – what are they actually conveying?


I think the industry needs to be more honest to potential buyers… create FAR better build manuals; have far better support services….

Anyone agree or disagree?

We all know that one such publisher, for his own personal gain, has unfairly and unjustly attacked certain products for dubious ‘technical’ reasons and, possibly worse, praised and recommended other products as fitting and performing ‘perfectly’. This before even seeing a single finished example; let alone witnessing its ease/difficulty of build. That’s hardly an honest approach – hey?

I wonder if the manufacturer of the kit that’s been recipient of the praise sees the need for a decent set of instructions, or a helpful telephone manner?

Ridding this industry of this kind of, incompetent at best and corrupt at worst, journalism would be a significant step in the right direction in my opinion. I reckon that a level playing field, reported upon by people who actually know what they’re talking about, and without having their hands in the till, would help restore confidence in this industry.

One magazine is trying to achieve just that. The other two resist: one by saying that all that’s been said is lies; the other by saying we’re “Fiercely Independent” – whatever that means.

So, I agree your diagnosis but believe that a fair, honest and competent press is the mechanism to ensure the industry’s progression. Fair, honest criticism would bring about better kits, manuals and services.

Den

[andy]

This is getting very political, IHMO the magazines are not the cause or cure.

These forems to an extent are routing out much of the problems as potential owners can contact existing owners and get the facts they want, I know of quite a few people that have avoided mistakes this way.

The current problem is that there doesn't seem to be one single high volume Kit car forum, this is bound to change in the next 5 years maybe a few colaborations or joint ventures (with the mags) is the way forward.

[andy]

I wonder if the manufacturer of the kit that’s been recipient of the praise sees the need for a decent set of instructions, or a helpful telephone manner?

Den

Lol very loudly