Miglia Leggera (or Spitfire based...)

[Marc F]

Hi all, after a fun few months (change of job, wife starting new job, family matters etc etc, yawn) I have been able to get back in the garage. State of play is:

Lifted body, and hung it on my garage roof (over my wife's side :smile:) so now have full access to the chassis and frame. I have purchased three A-frame stands so will strip down, lift, then rebuild up to "pre wheels" stage, before lowering again to refit the body.

Engine stripped off and taken out (no hoist yet so easier to remove ancillaries etc) - this weekend's job is to build teh engine stand and get the engine up on it. With the body off I now have room at the front and rear of the chassis to work on bits. The engine is all new ( I built it up using all new components 30 years ago, never run, so just stripping down, clean (rust free thankfully), lubricate and build up again. Partly for my own peace of mind, partly to let my son learn some spanner skills (I have started him off - he helped the stripdown - 17, leaning to drive, so about time he learnt how to hold a spanner).

Once engine is back together (which will need a new gasket set only officially, but will replace filter, refurb, repaint etc) it will be "strip down the chassis" time. I have a load of new goodies to go on, so will be good fun.

For anyone who is interested (and I only realised nobody knew when I read another thread), I am based in Billericay, Essex, so happy to receive visitors. I will be going to Stoneleigh this bank holiday so happy to meet up with any fellow builders.

I have gained an iphone, so should be able to post photos - is there a "how to" somewhere, as I would like to share the progress of what will no doubt be a slow and painful process :smile:

[Paul L]

Marc F - I'm looking forward to seeing this build thread. :cool:

There are a couple of links with information about loading photos:

This one covers photos stored externally.
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3076

This one covers photos stored on the forum itself.
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4810

Note:
This forum feature only went live in 2014, so was not available at the time the other thread started.
( But it is mentioned at the end of the first thread. )

Hope that helps, Paul. :)

[Marc F]

Cheers Paul - I will create an album and see how it goes. I am hoping to streamline the photo stage so i can just click on teh phone and make it appear, so will experiment further.

And if I read right, Mike has stopped making kits now has he? Shame, and hope I can get a receipt off him to register it. Will keep trying him...

[garyh]

Just make one up...

[Marc F]

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=285

If this works, it will be the body finally taken off the chassis (ably assisted by James, my son)


Edit - hmmm, no actual pic, just the link. Back to the drawing board...

Try

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=285

Ah ha, success. Ok, some lessons for me there - take photos the right way round. And tidy my garage up :-)

[Marc F]

Frame (and clutter)

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=287

Body off and stored hanging from the roof (that's my wife's car below it, so I made sure the ropes were good...)

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=286

And my newly cleaned workbench - I know, I shouldn't be so proud of it...

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=288

[Paul L]

Marc - Good to see your build thread is up and running. :cool:

Well, apart from having to look sideways at the photos. :icon_wink:

I am sure your work bench will be a great help in your build.
( Even if it is unlikely to stay that clean for long. )

Good luck, Paul. :)

[Marc F]

Chees Paul. I will be at Stoneleigh in Sunday looking at welding masks and other assorted goodies, then back in the garage on Monday.

Must look at my phone to see how to realign the photos BEFORE uploading them to the album :-)

[1iTim]

Nice work Marc good to see!

Tim

[davecymru]

A clean workbench!! I'm not sure I agree with such radical notions!
;)

All looking good so far matey, I look forward to seeing this one progress

[Carib Classics]

Hey Marc have you made any further progress with your kit?
How much shorter is you body than that of the Herald? Is it really 8 1/2" shorter?

[Marc F]

Hi Carib. This weekend I stripped the engine for a clean and rebuild after it sat around for 30 years. Just ordering the parts from paddocks now.

As to the body, I believe it is 9" shorter. Sadly, however, my understanding is that Mike is no longer selling kits, so I may end up the only Spit based Miglia. Sorry

No photos yet - not sure how interesting a workbench full of Spit engine bits would be to anybody. But glad I took it out, as I noticed the cam bearings were not installed in line with the oilways, so will need to get those pushed out and refitted. Wish I had checked more carefdully 30 years ago...

[8 Valve Ed]

No photos yet - not sure how interesting a workbench full of Spit engine bits would be to anybody.

You posted a lovely photo of a sterile bench, to see it laden with engine parts would be a real treat! :icon_smile:

They say a picture tells a thousand words...

[Marc F]

Cheeky! But as there is no rest for the wicked I will do that tonight.

Otherwise, plan for coming weekend is to get the suspension off so the chassis can go up on stands. When that happens I will put some more photos up. After all, it is supposed to be a build thread, not a dismantling one...

Cheers all. It is quite encouraging knowing that others are watching, keeping me honest.

[8 Valve Ed]

After all, it is supposed to be a build thread, not a dismantling one...

Not so sure about that... I think there can be a lot of value in seeing things as they were at the start. I stupidly forgot to record the dismantling on my Berlinetta, to my cost. There were several things from two years ago when I stripped the car which I really needed to check back on but I had no photographs to look at. Which way brackets or panels were attached, which bracket went where and stuff like that.

I think one of the great values of a forum like this is to keep us on our toes so to speak. If somebody see something wrong they will usually speak up. A bit of praise and encouragement goes a long way too!

[Marc F]

Wise words. Sadly, my original donor was stripped down 30 years ago pre digital, so I now have the joys pf making sense of things like the wiring loom etc. Digital cameras have made everything easier these days.

But, really enjoying this and excited by the car, which is all good. I felt again, up at Stoneleigh, how boring the kit car world is in danger of becoming with factory build Cobra's and 7's, so coming back to the garage to my pile of bits and pieces felt satisfying.

[froggyman]

I am sure this is going to be a great build for many to watch. The bench would put many kitchens to shame. Now pile it with bits and bobs and get it dirty!! Lol.

[8 Valve Ed]

I now have the joys of making sense of things like the wiring loom.

As for the wiring, if it's an old Lucas loom then it's fairly easy because the coulour codes are reliable.

Check out the CBS (Car Builders Solutions) catalogue, they have a list at the back of their catalogue with Lucas colour codes and what they do. Once learnt, you don't even need a wiring diagram. It's really very logical and makes a lot of sense.

Being REALY cheeky now, here's a screen shot of the chart... Taken from the CBS PDF catalogue which has a lot of really useful info in it.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7728/17189602190_7ce6f68478_o.jpg

Well worth sending off for the paper copy.

[Viatron]

Marc,
You might want to consider using a new loom, I got one from Langys Rod Shop and it was a dream to fit and cheaper than messing with exisitng 30 year old wiring that was suspect to begin with.
http://www.langysrodshop.co.uk/wiring_kits.htm

HTH
Mac

[Marc F]

Mac, that sounds interesting. I am aiming for as much reliability as possible, so every little helps. When youused them, did you order a "Triumph" loom, or do you give them specs of exactly what you want and they custom build it? If so, how do you sort out lengths etc? Sounds interesting though - I will wander over to the site at some point.

Initially though my target is to get the engine started, as a major morale booster. So my initial "loom" will be the starter and coil, which I will jury rig up (as I have not decided where I want the battery yet).

Thanks.

And Ed, that is a great wiring guide - great find.

[Viatron]

Marc.
Its a standard loom which is way loner all round than you would need so you just trim back to suite. Basically decide where you want to bolt the fuse box and then run wires from there. One big advantage is that every wire has its use printed on it about every 12" so its very easy to figure out what needs to go where. I fitted mine and had most circuits up and running in a couple of days. Being of American production its all very simple and a bit over engineered but I when you compare that to the nightmare of dealing with an old loom for me it was a no brainer. They do several types just pic the one with enough circuits for what you need.

Mac

[swifty]

Marc I can vouch for the Langys loom as i fitted one to my build, very easy and simple to install plus as Mac point's out all brand new so future proof compared to messing about with the old loom.
One thing though is the flasher relay keep falling out of the fuse board so i'm looking at ways to stop this, one guy has dremmeled the lugs on the relay to push further into the plug on the fuse board.

[Marc F]

Ok, some more sideways pictures - I guess the photo format is pushing the long side sideways, so I will have to remember to take the picture sideways to start with.

Anyway - the engine on stand

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=418

And the bits

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=33&pictureid=417

Toying with getting a later oil pump with angled pick up, but more expense...

And to explain - the engine was rebuilt 30 years ago when I was a kid, but never run. So all the machining is fresh. When we dragged it out of the garage, it turned freely, and when the head came off there was no rust - so I was lucky. All the shells etc had a film of oil on them still, so apart from some slight polishing marks ("witness marks" per my Stag friend) I will just give it a thorough clean and rebuild - this time with cam lube and graphogen paste to assist. I had a moment of panic with the cam as it looked like the bearings' oil holes were not aligned with the oilways, but last night with the aid of an inspection mirror I could see that the oilways from the main bearings were ok - not sure why two holes in bearing, but at least one is aligned so some oil will get to the cam. I had in my worry spoke to the machine shop thinking they could press out and realign, but they said it would wreck the shell so it would have meant new bearings.

And the Paddock bill is high as I am buying gaskets etc, along with new big end bolts, head studs and nuts, new tappet buckets (which I need to check as I thought I had replaced those 30 yars ago - need to look at the bills) etc, and the bill soon mounts up. But I have abandoned the idea of the rocker oil feed kit following a perusal of the web chatter, so that is £30 saved.

As to the loom, I am in two minds.A joy of kits is trying to recycle the donor as far as possible, against which nice and new and shiny is very appealing. I did not get a chance (yet) to browse that site, but that may help me make up my mind. This month is going to be expensive - Paddock's bill looks like £300, and Aldon ignition is heading that way as well. Gulp...

[8 Valve Ed]

Well done! Lots of nice bits there.

I wouldn't bother with an Aldon dizzy at this stage, you don't NEED it, especially with a four pot engine. In fact I have dumped the SD1 V8 electronic in favour of old fashioned points. At least if they give you a problem you can usually fix it by the roadside. If at a later date when funds recover and you really WANT an Aldon dizzy it's a simple two minute job to swap it out.

To check the cam followers put two with their 'flat' faces together, they should be very slightly convex, provided they are and aren't pitted, put them back, preferably in the same positions they came from. They will probably be better than the new ones you get today.

Keep up the good work, concentrate on getting the foundations right, the cosmetics can be adjusted later.

[Marc F]

Well, a big box of bits came from Paddock's, so just waiting on some final pieces. But it mean a slow weekend - I guess it happens. Current target is to get between 2 and 3 Sundays a month on the car to keep domestic harmony and real life balanced.

But it has let me ponder a question. Once I rebuild my engine, stuffed full of graphogen and cam lube and new running-in oil, should I start it and bench run it in, or should I leave it until the car is ready to roll. I want to start it up, but have heard horror stories of not bedding the rings in properly and so getting terrible oil consumption - which I don't want.

So, any thoughts out there of the pros and cons to now versus delayed?

[8 Valve Ed]

I would definitely spin it over to check compressions, oil pressure and circulation but maybe not fire it up...

If it's going to stand for a while again I would put some oil down the bores because it's almost impossible to prevent condensation on the bores, unless of course you take it indoors and keep it warm...

As for starting, then standing causing excessive oil consumption, that's a new one on me. I have had engines large and small stand and it's never happened in my experience, unless of course they have been thrashed from day one...

One of the best ways of ensuring low oil consumption is honing the bores properly, with 45º cross hatching, if that isn't done well then you may get excessive oil consumption. It's a slow painstaking task but worthwhile.

My two pence worth!

[Marc F]

Sorry Ed, I wasnt clear. I was referring to the need to run the bores in, without which the rings evidently will never seal. And it is this aspect of running in that bothers me, if I just start it up occasionally to make me smile, will I be ruining the chances of getting the rings to settle.

On the original rebore, the cylinders have been nicely cross hatched, so I think it will be fine, subject to my concerns about whether to just run it in for 20 hours on the bench, or wait for it to be on the road.

[8 Valve Ed]

Running an engine for 20 hours on a bench won't run it in. Not unless you have a dyno to load the engine of course...

In my opinion starting it occasionally to move it and enjoy the experience shouldn't do any harm because in 'normal' use the various pastes and additives will be wiped and washed off the cam and other critical surfaces in minutes so they amalgamate with the engine oil pretty quickly in any case. The important thing is to be sure you have oil circulation, take the filler cap off and check the rocker shaft is oozing and splashing in oil.

An engine needs a load to run it in and make the rings 'work' I have had several large engines, among them a Cat D4 and Volvo 12 litre truck, which when started smoked like crazy and would do so all day if left just ticking over, within a minute of making them work the exhausts were as clean as a whistle and stayed like for the whole shift.

You have to work an engine to get it running right, that's what it's designed for and it takes at least 15 to 20 miles to get it warmed up properly. One reason why racing car engines wear out so quickly, they don't have time for the working temperature to soak right through the entire engine and get the tolerances right. Formula 1 engines are heated overnight so when they are started they are on song from the start, else they would seize and fly apart before the first corner.

[Marc F]

Interesting, thanks. So your view would be the occasional morale boosting start up will do not significant harm.

As to running in, I wnder what "load" does to the pistons, as they only go upand down, so I would imagine revs more than "load". Towing a tractor woul still only require an up and down motion. So there must be more science to it than I can appreciate.

But can definitely see that the operating temperature will make a difference to the oil flow and movement of parts. Would an oil pre-heater make sense? I have seen them advertsied for winter use, so any thoughts please?

[8 Valve Ed]

If you read the instruction manuals for 50's - 60's cars they suggest a 500 to 1,000 mile 'breaking in' period. This means driving normally without revving the engine too hard nor letting it labour at slow speeds, driving gently (not towing tractors?). This gentle driving can be gradually be withdrawn after the breaking in period.

There are all sorts of anecdotes attached to this but revving an unloaded engine is bad because it places huge additional strain on the conrods and pistons. May seem crazy thing to say but if there is no load on the pistons the conrod has more to do yanking them to a halt at the top and bottom of the stroke, because there is less pressure or resistance, so it stretches and bends the rod more than usual. I know a lad who wrecked a really good Yamaha R6 racing bike engine just blipping the throttle, put a rod right through the side.

The original Austin Seven engine crank only had two bearings, a roller bearing at the front and a double row ball bearing at the back, when #'s 2 and 3 pistons rattled on the head it was time to change up. They very rarely broke the crank... Austin then decided to add a third bearing in the centre of the crank. Those engines didn't rev as well and they broke the cranks, which adds weigh to the argument that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As for the pistons and rings, the rings need pressure to cause them to seal, if they are just flapping about in their groove they aren't sealing very well.

My son showed me a video of really good demonstration by James May of ejecting a piston from a slightly slack bore, compared with ejecting a piston from a perfect bore. The difference was significant. They used compressed air and something like a large air gun. It may even be on U-Tube somewhere, in fact that's probably where he found it...

For a normal 'old' road car I don't think there is any need to get too hung up about warming the oil and stuff. We used to heat the oil (Castrol 'R') before we went on rallies in winter but I think it was more of an adventure rather than from necessity. The historic racing lads still do it in cold weather because cold Castrol 'R' is a bit like syrup! Modern multigrade oil is a different thing altogether.

The only other thing I can say is avoid driving up big hills with a cold engine and change the oil regularly.

[Marc F]

Ok, finally grasped the science behind this - load lets us open the throttle to increase the charge (and hence pressure in the bores) without over-revving the life out of it. I shall risk running the engine stationary as a morale booster during the build - worst that happens I can get the engine re-honed one winter if it fails to bed in properly. Thanks Ed - been useful.

[8 Valve Ed]

No probs Marc, glad to share the experiences of my misspent youth! LOL

For what it's worth my Rover V8 engine stood for at least two years with one carb missing and the other open on the dockside in Barrow.

https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7526/16037462512_53e6bc235b_c.jpg

There are watermarks on the bores, but no pitting. I have rebuilt the engine using the same shells and rings. It shows no signs of burning oil, granted very limited test running in garage but you can smell it if it is an oil burner, it doesn't smell. I honed the bores very carefully. Time will tell...

Good luck with your build.

[Marc F]

Hmmm, a V8 Miglia...

[1iTim]

Focus Marc, focus!!

[davecymru]

Stuff focusing.... FIT THE V8!! :)

[8 Valve Ed]

Well I do have a couple of spares... Well I do but one's a P5 and the other needs decking and some work on it. Really want to keep it as a backup...

I do have a couple of Borg Warner type 65 boxes looking for a good home, very cheap or free... Am soon going to need the space.

[a big scary monster]

I have occasionally hired 5kva diesel generators single cylinder air cooled hand start Lister Petter or lambardini engines with fixed revs with a load compensator and after about 3 weeks on site they start to rattle and clang and run hot and smell like they are burning oil, the chap from the hire shop comes out puts fresh oil in the air cleaners sump and engine then puts a load bank on them flicks the switches till its drawing near the generators Max load and leaves it like that for an hour or so, the engines labour and after a while kick soot out then they will run fine again for weeks, he says the bores glaze up when they are just running with little power being drawn off, he also said that once they started getting engine oil from a new supplier and all the diesel engines went down in quick succession turns out the new supplier was stickering up a better quality of oil and selling it as a lesser grade, seems simple diesel engines require load and reasonably poor oil to keep things bedded in, if the load bank trick doesn't work he has to strip and hone the bore and manually scrub clean the oil scraper piston ring.Ed

[8 Valve Ed]

I was going to say two Ed's are better than one, especially in a 90º configuration but it's getting late and I am tired...

[Mister Towed]

...all the diesel engines went down in quick succession turns out the new supplier was stickering up a better quality of oil and selling it as a lesser grade, seems simple diesel engines require load and reasonably poor oil to keep things bedded in, if the load bank trick doesn't work he has to strip and hone the bore and manually scrub clean the oil scraper piston ring.Ed

I read an article about squeezing the BMW E-30 six cylinder engine into a Marina based Marlin some time in the nineties, and the author recommended 'Happy Shopper' motor oil as the best lubricant for that engine for the same reason. I've got Mobil 1 in my Triumph six at the moment, but I've recently read that modern, high performance lubricants contain detergents and additives that can feck up an old engine, so will be changing it for 'Wilco' 10w 40 (around £9.99 for 5 litres) in a few weeks.

[8 Valve Ed]

Older engines rely on the fine sediment settling on the bottom of the sump and in nooks and crannies, because the oil filters of the day weren't capable of filtering out the fine particles without clogging.

If you go pre-war (WW2) few engines had oil filters at all. For those engines a basic straight 30 oil is better than even a basic multigrade. I believe that the demand for reliability in the field of war probably prompted the development of oil filtration, which was of course continued post war. 50's and 60's engines had an average 'life expectancy' of from 70 to 100 thousand miles, sometimes much less. I have had several cars in the last 30 years which have gone well beyond 250,000 miles untouched and with no special effort.

Modern oils keep the micro particles in suspension to allow them to be removed by the much more effective modern filters we have today. Another factor is the greatly improved metallurgy; the wearing parts of modern engines are greatly improved both in terms of wear resistance but also in terms of finish, the tolerances in modern engines can be much closer due to CNC machining and improved manufacturing techniques.

[Marc F]

So progress re-starts (where does the time go - wife, three kids, house, life...). Anyway, sourced some final bits and bobs for the engine and then looked at ancillaries. Found local places to clean my carb bodies and polish the manifold etc, and sorted out how to upgrade the ignition.

So dismantled the carbs - 30 year old fittings took some persuading, but got there. So this weekend will run the bodies etc down for tidying.

As that was happening I have sorted my workspace to allow me access - so moved ladder to ceiling (DIY job making a roller mount for it - idea from Web) and installed tool walls at side of car so I can mount my car tools in easy reach. All takes time away from spannering as my Stag friend keeps reminding me but I needed the space and can't bear being disorganised.

Long weekend ahead so will clean and repaint engine and components and look to the rebuild. I figure the shiny bits will take a week or so to be ready, so that will work out nicely, with aim to get the engine fired up for the first time in 30 years.

Once that happens (if...) then the chassis can be sorted out again. I have most of the bits so really its a clean and re-paint, and then rebuild the moving bits, before turning my thoughts to the supporting frame, which needs some radical reshaping. But that will be this winter's task no doubt.

Some big bills coming up, but hoping to manage the cash flow so that progress can continue. It has taken me a long time to get back to the car, and no doubt life will get in the way again, but for the summer ahead I hope to throw the hours at it, and see how it goes until the darker evenings kick in and sap my morale again...

The target is to get ready for body work prep for next Spring, so that I can take it outside and reduce the dust and mess in the garage. And hopefully by then my finances will bear the strain again.

Oh, and oils - I went for the running in oil that Paddocks sells. After that, who knows, but the next oil change seems a long way off yet (sadly).

[Mister Towed]

Welcome back Marc, on the road this time next year then...

[Marc F]

Well, one has to have a target...

The secret is keeping it realistic

[Paul L]

Marc - Good to see an update. :cool:

I am sure once you get back into it, the momentum will build.

Good luck, Paul. :)

[1iTim]

Welcome back! Life does get in the way doesn't it? Mine was a job redundancy and soon an interstate move!

Good luck!

Tim

[davecymru]

And hopefully by then my finances will bear the strain again.


Now there's a trick i want to know how you achieve!

Good to see you back matey and please post loads of pics as we're all interested to see what you're up to and wanting to steal ideas ;)

[Marc F]

Never been away. I will post some pics once the carb bodies come back and I get the manifold rebuilt.

My problem is I keep looking at Swifty's build over on the Sammio page and he does do VERY nice work on EVERY part, so it tends to make me want to raise my own efforts accordingly. But my car is never going to be as good as his, sadly.

[davecymru]

I know what you mean as when i started my Sammio i wanted to take the do everything amazingly approach, but in the end i found just as much personal satisfaction getting things done "as well as i could do them" while learning some new skills along the way.
So when i started my Miglia the plan was to adopt that approach from the outset but then revisit bits and make them even-better over time, while at the same time getting out n about and enjoying the car.

[Marc F]

Finally (finally) got some time in the garage that was actually on the car - up to now I have been tidying/sorting the space, getting organised. It paid dividends, being able to just find my tools when I needed them (simple job this weekend, stripping the studs off the block). But sure as eggs is eggs, I managed to just strip the engine block of most of its old crud/paint when I was called back for domestic duty.

Oh well, it's a start. But I worry for my sanity sometimes - if it is taking this long for the simple jobs, how long will the bodywork take me :-)

On a more positive note, the carb bodies came back from the bead blasters looking absolutely fantastic - highly recommend the process. I used a guy in Canvey Island who did a first rate and very economical job. AquaBead Blasting in Canvey - easy to find.

Sadly, the same could not be said for the polishing work, done in Rayleigh. Very poor, unfinished, and expensive. Oh well, live and learn. So the manifold will need more attention from me, my polishing wheel and a drill mop etc. Just wish I didn't have to waste money to get crap results like this. If anyone is interested in avoiding poor work, let me know and I will pass the details on privately.

Oh well, trials and tribulations. Next step is to try and remember how to link photos from my album to this thread.

[Paul L]

Marc - Being driven to the brink of insanity by an impossibly long "To Do" list sounds familiar. :rolleyes:

Jokes aside, the only way not to get completely overwhelmed by all the tasks ahead is to stick to the job in hand.

But the real key is to use what ever time you have available to work on the car no matter how small.

Whilst I've love to be able to spend 8 hours straight on the car every day, I've settled for as little as 15 mins on occasions.

Just remember every job counts and if you can keep chipping away at it, one day you will be looking at a finished car. :cool:

Good luck, Paul. :)

PS
I've been know to hang washing on the line / hoover / wash dishes / etc. in between car jobs. :icon_wink: