DeHavilland Motor Company - Support Pages.

[Dino Builder]

Firstly - A very happy new year to you all!
My name is Glenn. This is my first post on this forum and I hope that this thread will bring together any enthusiasts of the new DeHavilland to discuss the car and related topics - I personally am very excited about this new development and I'm watching it very closely. I can't wait to get more detailed info, etc.
I'm not entirely new to kitcars, however. I'm an aircraft engineer by trade, I have owned in the past a beach buggy, Jago Geep and 17 years ago I bought a second hand, factory-built JH Classics DGT Coupe. I had plenty of issues during my tenure with the car, some of them down to bad luck, others down to the car itself - but what a beauty, nonetheless.
However, I always had a desire for wind-in-the-hair driving and really would have preferred the 'Scoperto'.
Now, with the single-donor concept of the MG based DeHavilland, this is the car I've been waiting to build - and I cannot be the only potential builder who is bursting with questions and enthusiasm - so I hope we can throw ideas around on here and get our thoughts together! Any takers?...

[Dino Builder]

Here is a question which, I expect will be best dealt with by the man in charge himself. I like the choice of wheel for the car, looks superb. What I'm struggling to understand is that the MG PCD is 95.25mm but the industry standard is 100mm. Does the solution to fitting these wheels mean re-drilling the MG hubs? Surely these wheels are not available in 95.25mm PCD? If re-drilling the hubs is the solution, do the original bolt holes need to be filled to restore strength to the hub?

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/300947_209638002424548_142529139135435_502236_4140 498_n.jpg

[nilfish76]

Hi Glenn, i am another one waiting for the prototype to be completed, i need to see the completed article but looking on autotrader for an MG now. I have heard so many bad things about classic replicas that it is good to at last have something to compare against, are you in the same situation please let me know if you get one.

[nilfish76]

Would there be any change of changing the hub for a five studd as the originals, if you fid out a way please let me know i reallly want to have chromodoras (however you spell them) with the five studs.

[Dino Builder]

From searching the net, I've seen that some MG owners have redrilled a new 4-bolt pattern into their hubs. I can't say what effect this will have on hub strength due to removal of material, though. Five-bolt pattern is a problem due to hole overlap - i don't know if it can be done at all. As far as I can tell, adaptors are the only way to fit Cromodoras at the moment, and they may have to be custom made - could also space out the wheels a bit too much considering the zero offset.
I'm moving house in a week, to a double garage (with house attached, for her), so I'm not ready to search for a donor yet, but I'm watching the development with great interest.
On that subject, I've been playing with the chassis photos using a photoshop program to look at ways of increasing strength if it might need it in the future, as I want to build a GTS, plus I'm not keen on putting loads through a glass body. Obviously, the chassis is still being developed, so I'm jumping the gun - but it's interesting, nonetheless...pics to follow...if I can get them to upload....

[Dino Builder]

I've added a support structure to the front subframe, transferring the load through the centre rails. I've added a structure at the rear of the centre rails to rise to the height of the rear shock towers in the engine bay, with a bar across and then rearwards to the towers.
I've added structure to re-create a centre tunnel too. I haven't drawn any triangulation for clarity but, once added, this will create a stiff backbone which will increase torsional stiffness to the car also. Just my thoughts...but I think the subframes will need this extra support...

[Dino Builder]

Hope this works...

[DeHavilland Motor Co]

Hi Everyone,
Thankyou all so much for your support. I have had a look at the pictures nice to see so many people taking an interest in what we are doing. We will be posting some new photos on our Facebook page soon with some chassis updates. I hope you will enjoy the improvements made. I look forward to reading yours discusions on this page in the future.

Once again many thanks.

Regards

Terry Groves

[rossnzwpi]

Hi, the issue of hubs has been talked about in depth on here - if you do a search you'll find it. In summary 4 stud can't be changed to 5 without very thick
Spacers. Wellding up the hole and redrilling has been done but is only for a skilled engineer willing to use X-ray to test strength. One guy on here has actually fitted Alfa Romeo 166 ( and that is the only Alfa with the right size) hubs in MG uprights. This gives the right 108 mm x 5 PCD, the right centre bore size for Cromodora wheels or the new replica Dino wheels available at 695GBP in 14 and 16 inch size from Superformance. That is the route I'm planning on taking. All the best,
Ross in NZ

[dino_gt]

Hi Ross, good to see you over here. It is also important the engine issue.
I use alfa 166 hubs because i´m using alfa 3.0 v6 engine from a 164, so the driveshafts also match with 166 hubs.
However, you may even have other option for the hubs, with bigger centre bore, and still fitting cromodora wheels, because the wheel accepts a larger diameter hub, fitted behind the hub cap hole, where there´s a larger than 58mm diameter. No need for machining the wheel. I actually ended up doing this and goes fine. This also could allow you to use a different engine/driveshaft combination...

How is your project going so far?

regards

Dino_GT

[rossnzwpi]

Hi Dino_GT, my project is stalled at present. My dear Dad, who is storing various Dino bits for me seems to have thrown out my Dino flywheel for scrap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone know where I can get a replacement flywheel for a 206 motor???

On the topic of wheels that look like Dino but fit 4 stud hubs like the MGF - here is something I've suggested before, apologies for the rush Photoshop job.
Take one pressed/welded deep dish steel wheel - like the Weller ones in the UK. Get one to suit your drive train. Add a thin fibreglass molding in the shape of the Dino wheel and centre cap. Paint it shiny silver in the middle, dull silver round the edges, glue on a Dino badge. I've actually got ba mold of the wheel and a genuine Dino cap already.

Here's a mocked up picture
Cheers
Ross in NZ

[DeHavilland Motor Co]

Love the idea of the fiberglass faceplates to suit steel wheels im sure other people would be very interested in this. keeps us updated.
:-)

Regards Terry

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi
recently looked at your progress on your facebook page. I assume your finished car will need an IVA test as you've used a new chassis?
ian

[nilfish76]

Hi
recently looked at your progress on your facebook page. I assume your finished car will need an IVA test as you've used a new chassis?
ian

The car needed to have IVA done anyway as the chassis was altered in the first place?? now needs one because of a new chassis, much prefer there latest chassis, looks much stronger. I have a few concerns over the project which are mainly to do with the use of the original moulds from JH classics which are very different to the original GTS, if the body panels are the same then the boot (rear) will be shorter, the front won't be straight and about 3inchs too short, the nose will be droupy and the doors will be different sizes, there are a few other differences such as number of airvents to the engine cover, some of which could be explained as moulds being from a 206, but the 206 was never a GTS. Also as this is to be a replica, 108PCD 5 studd hubs are a must as all ferrari's (Even the latest ones) have this as a trade mark. This being said, i like the project alot. If I was to make improvements i would use body panels supplied by classic and sports cars unlimited, details can be fould on this forum with the username "fiberglass" and also same usernme on ferrarichat.com forum, which i can confirm from actually physically looking over the bodywork is identical.

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi Dino chums
Your right the jhclassic's moulds did have a few anomalies.The jhc moulds were from supposedly a 206,which was a handmade car,so there may have been discrepencies from car to car anyway.Most replacement panels for the dino are supplied oversize for fitting to individual cars!
For my car I re-made the mould for the boot/engine engine cover and have finished them the correct sizes and with the correct 7 vents. The doors do differ in size as you have said by about 5mm but I will correct this too. As to the droppy nose I know some have this and some dont-maybe a sagging nose is from incorrect storage before fitting,I dont know. The very front of the jhc shell doesn't sit on the chasis and is only supported by the bonded in floor so I suppose this could sag over time? Or may have been bonded in incorrectly? Again I have cut all the front floor/wheel well away and have resolved this on my car. Extra supports have gone in for mounting the front bumpers and to strengthen this area.
As to being some 3" shorter on the nose,I'm not to sure about.Alot was talked about this in the italian exoctica replica forum some years back and a guy on there listed every fault with the jhc and,as he owned both a real dino and a jhc he had the chance to compare the two side by side.He found the jhc was slightly shorter but by only 14mm overall, and actually had a identicle 206 wheel base!! Width wise it was around 4mm smaller overall. But this could be down to shrinkage in the moulds. A 4000mm shell would end up only 3980mm with just 0.5% shrinkage! And think if the mould shrinks by this amount,then you shell is already smaller before the shell itself shrinks! This is why patternmakers make the patterns biggar in the first place-so the finished item will be the correct size after casting.I should know as I'm a pattern maker.One thing you didn't mention was the rear wheel arch-this is from a 206. Apparently the later 246 had a slightly more rounded front edge.
If you read any ferrari books on the 206 and 246 the latter did grow in lenght and width anyway.I know the cascu moulds are more realistic as I've chatted with him and they were in fact taken from a 246.But in reality if the average guy in the street saw one would he know?
ian

[dino_gt]

Hi guys;
Here goes my opinion as well;

I wouldn´t consider the JH classics a bad replica, but I understand that something happened in the production of these replicas over the years, causing discrepancies between the very first moulds/units produced and the later ones.

First of all let´s make clear one thing that´s been said but I think that it has to be remarked:
The JH classics replica is a dino 206 and not a 246 dino replica.
Therefore, the wheelbase is shorter by 60mm and the number of air vents of the engine cover is 6 instead of 7 on the 246, among other differences.

The original 206 dino was an all aluminum bodywork hand built in the late 60´s and, therefore, as many other italian cars of the time, asymmetrical.
We can however consider all this measuring stuff, but the truth is that if you get to see one real 206 it´s probably going to be as “bad” as the replica is.

Even the later 246 are, as well, asymmetrical, specially doors. Remember that these cars were made between 1969 and 1973. The same happened with other alfas and maseratis of that time.

Only 152 units of the 206 were ever made, which makes it even more valuable than other Dinos, being originals sold for 200,000 US dollars nowadays. There were only 7 of these cars ever imported in the UK and they were all left hand drive.

Finally there is, to my knowledge, at least one 206 dino made with a removable roof, although with the rear quarter glass in place, like the GT, which is very rare and interesting.

I´ve been working with my car for 3 years now. One mistake made at the start was to consider the 246 as a reference to do the job. Today, I´m completely sure that it is not the way to go, although you can decide to transform the car into a 246, which is another possibility.

I personally prefer to stand as close to the original 206 as possible because this is the car that was copied at the start.

I have talked to David myrelees and John Hurst from JH classics, the men involved in the copying of the original 206 and I believe they made a good job. If you take a look at David myrelees´ car you can see how close it is to the real 206, it is almost identical.

However, it is true that, for some reason, that Deons have some differences from the original 206. We have corrected almost all of them in my car by now, as far as it was possible.

However, I think some of the most important are still not mentioned here. In my opinion, these are the most important:

-The width of the car: the deon is wider than the original, causing the wheels to look “pulled in” the bodyshell.
-The lower nose and lower rear end panels: These are missing. They didn´t copy these parts and are not present on the JH classics moulds.
-The dropped nose.

There are more, but these are probably the most important. However, regarding the dropped nose and wider bodyshell, it is not a problem of the moulds, but just the way the bodyshell was finished, when fabricating the inner tub and fitting it to the chassis, forgetting about the correct dimensions.

So I believe we have to separate the next 3 things, before judging the JH classics Dino:

-The asymmetries on the original car (which was never crashed, as some people say)
- The wrong finishing of the fiberglass bodyshell on the chassis.
-The missing or altered panels on the moulds.

In my opinion, the first one can´t be considered as a fault of the replica. The second one, causing dropped nose and wider bodyshell can be fixed (not a minor thing however) and the third one is really a fault in making the moulds, but it is also possible to modify.

One last thought: let´s not criticize and devalue our cars because they are probably not that bad as we may think…In fact, which other replica of a true 206 Dino has ever been made? I don´t know any other. Think about it.

Cheers everyone, and enjoy your cars/work.

Dino-GT

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi dino builders.
Just to add some more into the mix if your interested go to JHClassic's web site and take a look at his gallery.Top of the page is DGT0001 the vey first dgt produced and used in nearly all of the companies advertising.One thing that shows up is the lack of a quarter lite on the door window. And the first car also had a rain gutter too,that seem to disappear on later cars.
As to the missing lower panels front and rear these have been omitted to enable the shell to fit over the chassis. Easy fix really.Just glass in some panel edge returns to the shell front and rear, make a simple one off mould the correct (ish) profile and then fibreglass that. Trim and finally bolt to panel edge returns on the bodyshell. These could be finished in black gelcoat and left as is. Maybe cascu might be willing to mould these and offer them to dgt owners? Just a thought.
I think your right with the droppy nose being a fault of bonding in the floor/wheelwell. I've cut away most of the the floor on mine and rebuilt the wheelwell as I've hinged the bonnet the correct way and mounted these on the front chassis. I've move the radiator back about 100mm,fitted the fans to the front and the nose does sit alot better. If you look at the body swage line this runs through front to back almost horizontal to the road.
Another thing that can make the dgt look wrong is when the bumpers are fitted poorly-sloping down as they sweep around from the front to the side,both front and back.This also adds the the droppy nose look!!
With the pulled in wheel look again some cars seem to have it and some don't. Could this be down to wheel offset? I guess some adjustment to suspension could alleviate that? or fitting some concentric wheel spacers.
One thing I've come across with all Jhclassic's car and deon cars is a small dent on the passenger side door. Located about 10 inches from the front of the door and just above the swage line. Must have been on the original when the first moulds were taken. Looks like a carpark dink! Remember spotting this on a dark blue dgt at the Stoneliegh kit car show some years ago.There were several other dgts there that day and they all had it!:loco:
But as I said in my earlier post would the average guy in the real world know?

[dino_gt]

Hi there again;

I agree with you in many things. That DGT001 looked great. Regarding the wheels, I think that some cars can be wider than the original. The correct width for a 206 is 1703mm, so it´s easy to check. My car was wider for almost 100 mm!
If you have cut the floor, then pushing the door sills inside is possible, however some modifications to the chassis might be necessary as well… I´ve done this, and the car looks much better.

I believe this “pulled in” wheels look like it´s not only a matter of the wheels/offset/spacers …If the car is wider, it is not going to look good once you fit the cromodora wheels. I know this because I did it. In fact this is how I realized that we also had to correct the width. It´s a hard thing to do though, but possible.

Yes, the space for the front radiator is much bigger when you lift the nose, this is really helpful.
The car looks very different and the swage line looks parallel to the floor as well. It´s a great improvement.

Omitting the lower nose and rear end panels was not a good idea from my point of view. Using cascu´s panels may not be the best solution, since it´s a later 246 series replica with the air intakes for the brakes, which the 206 didn´t have…however it´s my personal point of view.

The 246 bodyshell is also different in many other details, not only longer. The shape is different.

All these modifications involve hard work of course. I believe that Tom Marr was the first to start with them, and I have to say that he did a great job.

I saw his car in august, and it looks great. I think any of these changes can be a great improvement to these cars, that´s why I say the car has a lot of potential, and, therefore, not a bad replica, as many people are saying…

Good progress with your car. It´s certainly going to look good.

regards

Dino_GT

[nilfish76]

Yes I agree its a good replica, i would say my issue is that i know the original car so well because as a kid cleaned my neighbours GTS, he even let me drive it out the garage at 14, so i have been in love with this car all my life. for a number of years i have been picking fault with other peoples replicas and comparing them to the original and for years putting off getting a replica only because i am still slowly saving. I know the old JHC cars well, but i have been to see his new car, i could seee that the quality is there but the shape and proportions were not, i think he made a mistake going for the MR2 mk2 bolt on panels, Last year i picked up a extreme murci dvd and could see the ease on how the original mk2 car can be complety altered so that the wheelbase and tracking changed to match the original shape. also this got me looking at woodsport on how they carry out engine swaps to put a toyota 3.0 V6 into a standard mk2 and they have a demo car which i can say has superb power and reponse ideal for these projects. However the mk3 is already a convertable it has a shoter wheelbase and tracking than the origanl GTS and i and thinking an engine swap following by resizing the chassis remove the A posts (front windscreen) and fabricaing framework to bond cascu body to could be an option for me to go along, I will have to IVA the cacr anyway so the original seats and iterior can be used to pass the test and then the focos will be to match the iterior the the original. However what would be better than that is to confirm that the Dehavilland chassis can be bonded to Cascu's body, i know that dehavilland are looking into a v6 option so i am going to keep watching there progress and hope that they are at stonleigh this yea, i still need more time to save anyway.

[nilfish76]

Dare i say it, the best replica i have ever seen has been a classic replicas gts last december. Very good, very expensive even as a kit, and still has faults (but not many). It is much better than there previous attempt at copying Deon. However i have already been warned about some peoples dealings with the owner, which people can look up for themselves. However i wouldn't rule him out as an option, he has always been quite open, informative, and pleasant to deal with from my own experiences. As i have stated in other posts i still need time to save so i am taking my time and keeping an eye out on all developments. I am especially looking forward to seeing Dehavillands prototype completed. And i hope thay keep it as a demonstrator for customers to try, JHC and CR don't have this which i think is daft and concerning, put it this way i didn't buy my everyday car with out giving it a go first.

[thecarbuilder246]

hi all
I regularly go to the ferrari owners club day and have had time to study many dinos side by side.I've got endless photos. And even some of these cars differ from each other.Door locks move up or down on the door.Different bumpers,interiors etc.Chairs and flairs is another. Five spoke gold wheels,so who's really to say what's what.
Even met at a fiat/lancia owners day a guy who had been "thrown out" of the ferrari owners club as he had radically altered a 206 alloy body and butchered it onto a 246 chassis!! Got photos of that too somewhere.He had the later 246 engine and running gear,earlier 206 knock on wheels and the 206 interior,even down to the headrest fitted to the rear baulk head instead of the seats as in the 246, and even the thin wooden rimmed steering wheel. Sort of odd but it looked so good.
ian

[thecarbuilder246]

hi again
quick query for dino gt. are you using a jhc/deon shell. if so and your copying a 206 will you be altering the door hinge system so you have opening windows?
When I got my car I did consider making a 206 too but when fitting the doors and altered door frames realized as the 206 has one big drop glass the window will not pass the hinging system in the door/a pillar to drop into the door.
One of the reasons I went the 246 way-quarterlites!!
ian

[thecarbuilder246]

hi again
quick query for dino gt. are you using a jhc/deon shell. if so and your copying a 206 will you be altering the door hinge system so you have opening windows?
When I got my car I did consider making a 206 too but when fitting the doors and altered door frames realized as the 206 has one big drop glass the window will not pass the hinging system in the door/a pillar to drop into the door.
One of the reasons I went the 246 way-quarterlites!!
ian

hi again
of course the whole replica thing falls apart if some one wants to look at the engine.Just sticking a ferrrari badge on it doesn't cut it! I have a cosworth v6 in mine that will be run on throttle bodies but I'll leave the badges on.
ian

[thecarbuilder246]

Dare i say it, the best replica i have ever seen has been a classic replicas gts last december. Very good, very expensive even as a kit, and still has faults (but not many). It is much better than there previous attempt at copying Deon. However i have already been warned about some peoples dealings with the owner, which people can look up for themselves. However i wouldn't rule him out as an option, he has always been quite open, informative, and pleasant to deal with from my own experiences. As i have stated in other posts i still need time to save so i am taking my time and keeping an eye out on all developments. I am especially looking forward to seeing Dehavillands prototype completed. And i hope thay keep it as a demonstrator for customers to try, JHC and CR don't have this which i think is daft and concerning, put it this way i didn't buy my everyday car with out giving it a go first.
Hi.
Strange you say that as the moulds for classic replicas gt and gts were taken from deon body shells.I know this for a fact as I visited classic replicas when the moulds were being manufactured and spoke at length with markus king who was gelcoating the deon bodyshell prior to laying up with fibreglass.Gordon was on holiday at the time in the us and markus spent almost all day with me.He showed me a completed deon rolling chassis from which the bodyshell had been taken. So due to shrinkage in fact the cr shells may end up being even smaller than the deons. They were even working from the same shed deon/ jhc made their shells in illminster!!
I know they updated few things but it was basically a rebadged deon which was initially a rebadges jhc.
ian

[nilfish76]

Hi.
Strange you say that as the moulds for classic replicas gt and gts were taken from deon body shells.I know this for a fact as I visited classic replicas when the moulds were being manufactured and spoke at length with markus king who was gelcoating the deon bodyshell prior to laying up with fibreglass.Gordon was on holiday at the time in the us and markus spent almost all day with me.He showed me a completed deon rolling chassis from which the bodyshell had been taken. So due to shrinkage in fact the cr shells may end up being even smaller than the deons. They were even working from the same shed deon/ jhc made their shells in illminster!!
I know they updated few things but it was basically a rebadged deon which was initially a rebadges jhc.
ian

Hi ian

What is your opinion on the cascu moulds and body?

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi phil
I've spoke via e-mail with cascu many times mainly through ebay. He auctioned a few things under the name (I think?) berkley cars and on several pictures in the background was a dino shell. He also sold a few mouldings for the dino under the cascu name. I have only seen photos of the shells and chassis but they do look very good.
To be honest from what I've seen,and learnt from him , if I was starting again today I'd be using his chassis and bodyshell.The chassis looks great and the bodyshell is from a 246 as he personally took the moulds from one. I did consider for a long time selling my deon (less any ferrari parts) and starting again with his kit but with all the work I've done 246ing my deon couldn't justify the expense with the other half!!!
Ian

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi guys;
Here goes my opinion as well;

I wouldn´t consider the JH classics a bad replica, but I understand that something happened in the production of these replicas over the years, causing discrepancies between the very first moulds/units produced and the later ones.

First of all let´s make clear one thing that´s been said but I think that it has to be remarked:
The JH classics replica is a dino 206 and not a 246 dino replica.
Therefore, the wheelbase is shorter by 60mm and the number of air vents of the engine cover is 6 instead of 7 on the 246, among other differences.

The original 206 dino was an all aluminum bodywork hand built in the late 60´s and, therefore, as many other italian cars of the time, asymmetrical.
We can however consider all this measuring stuff, but the truth is that if you get to see one real 206 it´s probably going to be as “bad” as the replica is.

Even the later 246 are, as well, asymmetrical, specially doors. Remember that these cars were made between 1969 and 1973. The same happened with other alfas and maseratis of that time.

Only 152 units of the 206 were ever made, which makes it even more valuable than other Dinos, being originals sold for 200,000 US dollars nowadays. There were only 7 of these cars ever imported in the UK and they were all left hand drive.

Finally there is, to my knowledge, at least one 206 dino made with a removable roof, although with the rear quarter glass in place, like the GT, which is very rare and interesting.

I´ve been working with my car for 3 years now. One mistake made at the start was to consider the 246 as a reference to do the job. Today, I´m completely sure that it is not the way to go, although you can decide to transform the car into a 246, which is another possibility.

I personally prefer to stand as close to the original 206 as possible because this is the car that was copied at the start.

I have talked to David myrelees and John Hurst from JH classics, the men involved in the copying of the original 206 and I believe they made a good job. If you take a look at David myrelees´ car you can see how close it is to the real 206, it is almost identical.

However, it is true that, for some reason, that Deons have some differences from the original 206. We have corrected almost all of them in my car by now, as far as it was possible.

However, I think some of the most important are still not mentioned here. In my opinion, these are the most important:

-The width of the car: the deon is wider than the original, causing the wheels to look “pulled in” the bodyshell.
-The lower nose and lower rear end panels: These are missing. They didn´t copy these parts and are not present on the JH classics moulds.
-The dropped nose.

There are more, but these are probably the most important. However, regarding the dropped nose and wider bodyshell, it is not a problem of the moulds, but just the way the bodyshell was finished, when fabricating the inner tub and fitting it to the chassis, forgetting about the correct dimensions.

So I believe we have to separate the next 3 things, before judging the JH classics Dino:

-The asymmetries on the original car (which was never crashed, as some people say)
- The wrong finishing of the fiberglass bodyshell on the chassis.
-The missing or altered panels on the moulds.

In my opinion, the first one can´t be considered as a fault of the replica. The second one, causing dropped nose and wider bodyshell can be fixed (not a minor thing however) and the third one is really a fault in making the moulds, but it is also possible to modify.

One last thought: let´s not criticize and devalue our cars because they are probably not that bad as we may think…In fact, which other replica of a true 206 Dino has ever been made? I don´t know any other. Think about it.

Cheers everyone, and enjoy your cars/work.

Dino-GT
Hi
I've been looking at endless dino 246 photos over the week end and I've noticed that the swage line on the body doesn't run through in a straight line from the front of the car to the back. It starts at the nose and seems to run up from the very front of the car in a straight line to the rear edge of the front wheel arch at about a 4/5 degree angle,then runs parallel to the road between the front and rear wheel,before tapering out behind the rear wheel.
If you look at the front wheel arch the swage line is approx 2 inches lower at the front than at the back.Strange what you see when you look closer!!
ian

[dino_gt]

Hi Ian;

I´m afraid I can´t go the complete 206 way, because I think it would be impossible. First thing would be the "spinner type" wheels, which i´m not using. I´m using 16" cromodoras with the modern 246 hub caps.

There are as well other differences such as the head-rests, etc. The car is going to look as a mixture of modern components in an "old 206", but regarding the bodyshell, I wanted it to be as the 206 and L-series of the 246 are, and not introducing the modifications of later 246.

The modifications are going to affect the items used to finish the car: steering wheel, wheels, etc. I´ll post some pics when it´s ready for that.
Also, being a replica, we don´t have to worry about winning any concourse, do we?

What is really interesting to me about the 206 is that it was an all aluminum car, really light, and rare, as there were only a few produced, but the 246 probably looks better.

I´m using an alfa 3.0 V6. I agree that the engine has to be a V6, absolutely. I also was worried about the performance and handling of the car so we have worked really a lot on that: suspension geometry, etc.

Lately we´ve been really into the bodyshell and on the doors. At the moment we´re working with the door frames and the opening system. The frame is basically the one used in the deons, but trying that it leaves only a small gap with the bodyshell (3-4mm).

We´ve also modified the rear quarter window to make it the correct size and put a rain gutter close to the one fitted to the original car.
Really hard work!

Cheers
Dino_GT

[dino_gt]

Hi again Ian;

Yes, the line at the front is lower than in the middle of the car, but parallel.
Also, the rear is also higher than the middle section of the car.

About the inclination, it seems also that the rear and the front are more inclinated and only the center section is really parallel to the ground.

however, the suspension set up is important. Some cars seems to have higher ground clearance than others and that affects how the car looks.
If you leave one axle higher than other...

However, these things are specially present on the 246 more than on the 206, I believe...

I may be visiting the ferrari club over here soon and take a look and some measures of a 246 which is being restored. Quite a long time since I don´t see this car. Hopefully I can take some pics and specially meausures.

I´ll tell you what happens.

Dino_GT

[nilfish76]

Hi phil
I've spoke via e-mail with cascu many times mainly through ebay. He auctioned a few things under the name (I think?) berkley cars and on several pictures in the background was a dino shell. He also sold a few mouldings for the dino under the cascu name. I have only seen photos of the shells and chassis but they do look very good.
To be honest from what I've seen,and learnt from him , if I was starting again today I'd be using his chassis and bodyshell.The chassis looks great and the bodyshell is from a 246 as he personally took the moulds from one. I did consider for a long time selling my deon (less any ferrari parts) and starting again with his kit but with all the work I've done 246ing my deon couldn't justify the expense with the other half!!!
Ian

Unfortunatly Mark is very busy and i can understand why, he seems to produce good quality products, I strongly think that his body shell, chassis, iterior panels with a V6 from an alfa or a toyota would be great, his current chassis isn't set up for an alfa becasue of the positioning of the gear box, but i still think and a toyota engine with potential to put a TRD bolt on turbo would be amazing and if alterations need to be made, which would be at a cost then imo a stronger engine should be used. does anyone else think that this is a good option?

[dino_gt]

Hi Nilfish;

Mark´s Dino is great. I made a visit to him in summer and his 246 replica is awesome. However, this replica is intended for using a ferrari donor. The chassis is much narrower at the rear for using an alfa v6, with the geargox mounted at a side of the engine and not underneath.

The best solution would be to fit a longitudinal mounted engine and gearbox or modify the chassis. This last option involves designing a new geometry, so it´s a harder option.

Also, you have to consider using ferrari parts as wishbones and steering rack.
Some are avaliable, but are much more expensive than regular donor parts.

I´d say, if you have a 308 gt4 dino as donor then perfect, if not, you´d have to look for solutions for a number of issues...

cheers.

[nilfish76]

Hi dino_gt

Agree, Mark said this himself to me, but it is achievable with some thought and engineering, i only have time at the moment lol, Doner engine and gearbox would need to be chosen carefully, would you have any ideas on the engine?

Cheers

[dino_gt]

well, you could fit any v6 really.

Camry´s v6 is good but i believe it´s an iron block, which is heavier...the alfa V6 is made of alluminum, which is lighter. I specially like this engine bacause I know it very well, it has great torque and it is very powerful.

Another option is using an audi V6, mounted logitudinally with gearbox, as in the A4. It could probably be the best option to keep the chassis as it is, without modifying at least the suspension mounting points...

Of course, the best option for me would be to fit a dino gt4 or a 308 gearbox underneath the engine, also for weight distribution.
this gearbox disposition was one of the keys to make the stratos so competitive.

One thing about the engine is that the more compact it is, the better, because you don´t have much room for it in the engine bay (specially height)

The alfa V6 is quite compact.

cheers.

[rossnzwpi]

Hi, I agree that a V6 is the obvious way to go. Read any review of the Dino and one of the first things they mention is the glorious wail of the Dino V6 , which is why I've bought a 2 liter FIAT Dino V6. Rebuilding it isn't cheap though! I'd look at mating it to an Alfa manual gearbox, with Alfa 166 hubs so I could use Cromodoras.
But, if I hadn't invested in a Dino I'd definitely use an Alfa V6! The sound they make and the sporting delivery as the revs rise is awesome. Why on earth would you use a turbo or a slow revving luxury V6 instead of a sports car engine? Power isn't the only goal here! This little, nimble light weight car was fabulous with 195 bhp so anything around there with slightly less weight would be great.

Thats my opinion anyway - but I've been an Italian car nut since I saw ( and heard ) my first FIAT 124 sport
Cheers
Ross in NZ
Ps - the 206 with no fron quarter lights, often seen in Pininfarina promo photos was a prototype - as far as I know production 206 s had quarter light windows

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi Ian;

I´m afraid I can´t go the complete 206 way, because I think it would be impossible. First thing would be the "spinner type" wheels, which i´m not using. I´m using 16" cromodoras with the modern 246 hub caps.

There are as well other differences such as the head-rests, etc. The car is going to look as a mixture of modern components in an "old 206", but regarding the bodyshell, I wanted it to be as the 206 and L-series of the 246 are, and not introducing the modifications of later 246.

The modifications are going to affect the items used to finish the car: steering wheel, wheels, etc. I´ll post some pics when it´s ready for that.
Also, being a replica, we don´t have to worry about winning any concourse, do we?

What is really interesting to me about the 206 is that it was an all aluminum car, really light, and rare, as there were only a few produced, but the 246 probably looks better.

I´m using an alfa 3.0 V6. I agree that the engine has to be a V6, absolutely. I also was worried about the performance and handling of the car so we have worked really a lot on that: suspension geometry, etc.

Lately we´ve been really into the bodyshell and on the doors. At the moment we´re working with the door frames and the opening system. The frame is basically the one used in the deons, but trying that it leaves only a small gap with the bodyshell (3-4mm).

We´ve also modified the rear quarter window to make it the correct size and put a rain gutter close to the one fitted to the original car.
Really hard work!

Cheers
Dino_GT
Hi
My chassis was the last one to leave deons factory and was engineered to take the ford v6 engine and also had the alteration to the footwells. I have used the standard deon wishbones front and back the fiat/lada front uprights up front and the lancia items at the back.
I started in the engine bay,as after speaking with David Javan I had to have a cossie v6 lump. A brand new crated engine came up, the exsisting engine mounts were cut off and it was shoehorned in.New engine mounts were made and welded in allowing the engine and gearbox to sit 2" lower.I had to have an original boot/engine cover-not the ugly deon thing with the top box bonded on!! On my side the cossie lump was also slightly less tall than the essex unit and came with all alloy heads and alloy sump as standard.
Another upgrade was a one off double core radiator with twin fans mounted approx 100mm back to allow correct bonnet opening.This meant cutting away most of the front floor,which seemed to allow the nose to move up to a more pleasing postion-result!!
Brakes have also been upgraded-280 x 24 brembo vent discs at the front with wilwood 4pots,280 x 10 brembos at the rear with (for Iva ) standard lancia calipers and handbrake.Hubs front and back have all been remachined and fitted with one off cnc'd concentric hub adaptors drilled to take the 16"cromodoras.
Starting at the front of the car a completely new bonnet was made as after the nose moved the original no longer fitted.This also has a moulding on the underside to make it more convincing.Patterns were made and alloy hinges cast for front opening as per real dino.Looking at buying superformance wheel well/front under bonnet mouldings to finish off in here. Also looking at the under belly moulding missing from the deon.
I too have hacked the rear quarter lites to bits and added a rain gutter.I have looked into a stainless trim to go on this but at the moment cannot get it to bend around the tight corner and look any good.It needs a few cuts to remove excess metal the tig weld and polishing back.
Unfortunately I never got the window frames from deon,so went to cr for them,but to be honest they were utter garbage. They were flat where the deon door is shaped around the quarterlite and when I tried to bend them to fit the welds broke.I did eventually get them to sort of fit but they really did look crap. :frusty: After much head scratching and looking over a couple of dinos I took the bull by the horns and machined some lenghts of 20mm steel bar in to an "H" section to take the window flock/channel.These were then made up in to window frames on the car.About this time I came across a opening quarterlite on ebay and with a £65 winning bid was utter blown away when it fit straight in with little work. Of course new rubbers were ordered and as the dino has curved glass new flat glass will be fitted as well.
Mercedes 200 door locks were fitted as these are almost identicle to the ones used on the dino. Daytona openners take car of the outside while currantly working on the internal door openners.I've also moved the seat belt point to the correct postion and made a moulding to sit over it for a correct look.I'm using uprated deon door hinges and have fabricated brackets that mount to these and then onto the chassis for increased rigidity.
On the side I've increased the depth of the cill as mine was short for some reason and will extend this under the car as per dino.
At the back new mouldings for both the boot and engine cover were made.The engine cover relies on the deon hinges(now covered in the car by the seat belt moulding)and new hinges copied from a dino take care of the boot lid.Another pattern and casting for the boot handle fitted to the bootlid and another moulding seperates the engine compartment from the boot.I'm also looking to fitting the panel under the rear of the car. There is pobably alot more I've forgot-been on it ten years!!

[rossnzwpi]

Wow, sounds like you've achieved a lot. It would be great to see lots of photos of your build and alterations
cheers
Ross in NZ

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi
I did try to load photos on to here but the size (mb or jpeg or something)was to big to load.Too many pixcels :frusty:

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi Dino_GT, my project is stalled at present. My dear Dad, who is storing various Dino bits for me seems to have thrown out my Dino flywheel for scrap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone know where I can get a replacement flywheel for a 206 motor???

On the topic of wheels that look like Dino but fit 4 stud hubs like the MGF - here is something I've suggested before, apologies for the rush Photoshop job.
Take one pressed/welded deep dish steel wheel - like the Weller ones in the UK. Get one to suit your drive train. Add a thin fibreglass molding in the shape of the Dino wheel and centre cap. Paint it shiny silver in the middle, dull silver round the edges, glue on a Dino badge. I've actually got ba mold of the wheel and a genuine Dino cap already.

Here's a mocked up picture
Cheers
Ross in NZ
Hi all
If anyone is interested I have 5 replica cromadora wheels ,that I made the patterns for and were then handcast by a local foundry,sent away for heat treated before being part machined for me by an old friend who owned his own engineering company. Sadly,as it was a fill in job to do when he wasn't busy,he passed away before they were finished:( (machined to fit lancia/beta/lada/deon hubs!) I visited several engineering companies to get them finished machined but was quoted silly money so I abandened the project and got a set from superformance for around half the price of the machining quote!!
I guess they could be adapted to use for making a hub cap as per above. Or maybe finish machined if you have access to a big enough lathe.Looking for around £100 as that's what the recyclers have offered. If interested pm and I'll send some pictures.There are five in total.
Ian

[nilfish76]

Hi all
If anyone is interested I have 5 replica cromadora wheels ,that I made the patterns for and were then handcast by a local foundry,sent away for heat treated before being part machined for me by an old friend who owned his own engineering company. Sadly,as it was a fill in job to do when he wasn't busy,he passed away before they were finished:( (machined to fit lancia/beta/lada/deon hubs!) I visited several engineering companies to get them finished machined but was quoted silly money so I abandened the project and got a set from superformance for around half the price of the machining quote!!
I guess they could be adapted to use for making a hub cap as per above. Or maybe finish machined if you have access to a big enough lathe.Looking for around £100 as that's what the recyclers have offered. If interested pm and I'll send some pictures.There are five in total.
Ian


What hubs are you using now? oh and what steering rack are you using?

cheers

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi
Still using the lada/fiat hubs(brand new items from lada!) but these have been machined on the back face and centre inner diameter (which is still rough cast on the new hubs from the factory)to take a concentric hub adaptor that fits to the back and around the edge of the hub to give the correct diameter to fit the new brembo disc.The original hub outer edge and face were not machined in any way as to preserve the correct rotation of the disc and wheel when fitted. The adaptors are bolted to the hub in much the same ways as the disc are and were then put on a cnc and rebored to 5x108 pcd with the bolts going through both the original hub and new hub adaptor so bolting everything together.
As to the steering rack this came with the kit from deon when I originally got it but I believe it's from a BL mini. To increase it's width and make it adapt to the lada/fiat front uprights again adaptors came with the kit.
Ian

[mazzone0797]

Hi.
I am new to this topic and i am wondering if anyone know's how close the body is to the original, as it looks very good in the pictures. I have had a look at the Cascu images too and they look very close, as the body copy, is meant to be from an actual Dino. Also any up to date info on prices, levels of build and launch date. Regards Pierino

[dino_gt]

Hi Pierino;

I think Mark is currently making one of his cars so you may take the chance and visit him to take a look at it. You can contact Mark through this website or his facebook site to arrange a good date to meet.

Regards

Dino_GT

[mazzone0797]

Hi, thanks for that, ill see if i can as i'm very busy but will try. Regards Pierino

[MrBojangles]

Hi Everyone
DeHavilland Motor Company now have a website. Phoned Terry today to see how they were getting on and when their launch was going to be. No definate date but soon i was told, apparently they are just waiting for glass to come from manufacture and then some final trimming after the glass has been fitted and the car will be ready. Launch date is going to be posted on their website and facebook page. Now going to start looking for a MGTF on ebay. hoping to get the MGTF ready to take the kit over Xmas so i can order and start work in the new year. Thinking of starting a build thred if anyone is interested.

[garyh]

Look forward to viewing build.

[DeHavilland Motor Co]

Hi Everyone
DeHavilland Motor Company now have a website. Phoned Terry today to see how they were getting on and when their launch was going to be. No definate date but soon i was told, apparently they are just waiting for glass to come from manufacture and then some final trimming after the glass has been fitted and the car will be ready. Launch date is going to be posted on their website and facebook page. Now going to start looking for a MGTF on ebay. hoping to get the MGTF ready to take the kit over Xmas so i can order and start work in the new year. Thinking of starting a build thred if anyone is interested.

Hello MrBojangles

It was good to hear from you the other day, hope you are well.
Thank you for mentioning the website. As you say it’s now up and running and i have just added a blog spot so anyone can talk about original J H Classics DGT's and Scorperto builds as well as the later Deon cars. Obviously we would love to hear everyone’s comments on the new DeHavilland models as well as pictures and friendly advice.

I look forward to hearing everyone’s comments

Regards

Terry

[Inspace]

Hi Nilfish76, Good advice in your last post you know my feelings on this matter of CR. They have now changed names again but are still working out of the same premises. Seems they may be trying to hide the past.
I was forced to pick up the poorly built car after threats of storage costs by the new company director and I will soon be putting a video of just how bad it is on utube. All the faults spoken about in this forum exist on the car not to mention the fact that the shock absorbers were removed prior to the car being picked up.
From what I see of Dehavilland's progress it is inspiring and definitely the right way to go, great facebook page. CASCU are also making a really good replica so it is great that there is a future for this Classic.
I may try to get the Chassis sorted on vehicle that CR fobbed off on me but it really is quite frightening how bad it is. It will need to be completely stripped back and the jigged. Anyway it is complicated and probably worth more as scrap at the moment. Waiting for a full engineers report should have it in about a week if anyone is interested.

[dino_gt]

Hi Inspace;
looking forward to see that video and information about your car. Please keep us updated here.

kind regards

Dino_GT

[ROBBOC]

Waiting for a full engineers report should have it in about a week if anyone is interested.

If you're reluctant to summarise the engineer's conclusions here, Inspace, will you post them elsewhere and tell us where to look, please? If all else fails I believe you can publish pages of text on YouTube by photographing them as if for a video - we then pause to read. Might be best to keep the initials CR out of it, but we'll all know what you mean.

Although I appreciate the Madabout moderators' concerns, understanding what can go (and has gone) wrong in commissioning a build is vitally important for ordinary guys who'll struggle to afford to do it once, even. We absolutely have to avoid as many pitfalls as possible - and there's enough room for mistakes to happen unintentionally, without anyone's help, shall we say.

I was fortunate, my one build was a Caterham Super 7, and almost everything was impressively thought through, with the potential difficulties ironed out well ahead of me coming along... In fact things went ballistic at work and prevented my finishing it, but by then my younger son had grown up and joined the RAF, and completed the build for me in the hobby workshops they provide for servicemen - and did it beautifully, I must add. :amen:

[thecarbuilder246]

If you're reluctant to summarise the engineer's conclusions here, Inspace, will you post them elsewhere and tell us where to look, please? If all else fails I believe you can publish pages of text on YouTube by photographing them as if for a video - we then pause to read. Might be best to keep the initials CR out of it, but we'll all know what you mean.

Although I appreciate the Madabout moderators' concerns, understanding what can go (and has gone) wrong in commissioning a build is vitally important for ordinary guys who'll struggle to afford to do it once, even. We absolutely have to avoid as many pitfalls as possible - and there's enough room for mistakes to happen unintentionally, without anyone's help, shall we say.

I was fortunate, my one build was a Caterham Super 7, and almost everything was impressively thought through, with the potential difficulties ironed out well ahead of me coming along... In fact things went ballistic at work and prevented my finishing it, but by then my younger son had grown up and joined the RAF, and completed the build for me in the hobby workshops they provide for servicemen - and did it beautifully, I must add. :amen:
Hi
I would be interested too in seeing the photos of the chassis. You can pm me for my address.I have been following this thread for a while as I know all about them.Thanks Ian