Interesting . . .

[Ex-Biker]

I will start this by saying that I really do not want this subject to deteriorate as I have seen happen on other forums.
I am not posting this for a b*tchin'

I just picked up a WK? mag. The first time for 3 months, because of the b*tchin' between 'em.

Low and behold the page opens up on an article on a Python article. It is a reply to Kit Car's comments!

Why?????????????????

A quick read reveals that WK? are helping to finance the Python.

Surely this is at the least unethical, not only to the readers but also to other manufacturers? I would go as far as saying it is downright unprofessional and must put other manufacturers in the position of knowing the mag will be bias towards their own product.

I know this is contraversial, but I would like some constructive input to this topic.

To the average reader, are they bothered about this?
Are other manufacturers affected?

John, please don't lock this.
And no, I haven't spoken to anyone before posting this

[JG]

No reason to lock the thread..........yet :eusa_pray:

I havn't seen WK this month so can't comment on what's been said but personally I have no problem with a magazine being involved in the manufacture of a kit car......as long,

As the involvment and interest is openly stated,
Can be subject to independant reviews,
Reports, advertisments are factually correct (theres always some element of artistic license in adverts of course)

If the product is up to scratch and open to scrutiny then it shouldn't be a problem.

It's too early for me to think any more indepth at the moment but if the above points are not met then I think the involvement could be seen as unethical.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

[Ferg]

I have no problem with a magazine being involved in the manufacture of a kit car as long..As Reports, advertisments are factually correct
Thing is John as I see it.....

The adverts weren't factually correct as the car was described as if it could be driven when it hadn't even been built.

Successive Python apologists condemned KC magazine for badmouthing the cars engineering almost as a smokescreen when they had only criticised the advert wording.

As time has gone on and the car HAS been driven, WKC? mag has disingeously argued retrospectively about it's performance as if this justifies the original adverts.

Den Tanner, in my opinion, has been diverted from his original fully justifiable crusade into a poorly judged slanging match not of his making.

To Precis:
WKC? will now, surely, argue with barrowloads of hindsight how good the car is to paint Tanner as the bad guy. Hence their latest offer for his magazine to drive the car. What they have achieved is to maintain BIG magazine coverage for a product that didn't even exist in it's current form when it was being feted in WKC?, that, surely, is grossly unfair on a multitude of conventional manufacturers and, in my opinion, unethical.......

[JG]

Absolutely Ferg, I'm not defending what's gone on and I agree with you entirely, was just saying that I don't see it as a problem as long as the above criteria is met, if not then it is unethical imho.

TBH I can't see the Python getting any sort of foothold in this country. It is generally said that any publicity is good publicity but I think in this case it's not. People may be discussing the Python but it's generally with no sort of positivity.

I've seen the car myself and can't say there is anything about it that would prompt me to buy one over the likes of DAX, GD, AK or Pilgrim. I thought the fibreglass work was not up to standards expected on a Cobra nowadays and generally held no redeaming features that would make me want to buy it over anything else regardless of it's handling capabilities and question marks over the backup one might receive, but that's just me and what I would be looking for in a Cobra.

I think overall it's a shame. In other circumstances then the Python could have stood side by side with the cheaper Cobra replicas, use of BMW components is a bold move but with no proper prescence over hear as far as I can tell and with a kit price that doesn't seem to reflect the 'cheap' Cobra that was promised I can't see why anyone would buy one.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

[Purple Ak]

Why dosn't this really come as a suprise, given all the denials that have been posted on other forums in the past :eusa_liar: Apart from other issues of design, which are best left dormant :eusa_shhh: . I have to agree with John in that having seen the car several times, There has been no effort to PRESENT it at shows. And IF I were a potential buyer, It would come a long way down my shortlist.

[Ex-Biker]

If I were an manufacturer of a 'budget' Cobra, I would be very concerned about the comments in WK?.

For some time now the mag has made comments about the Python being a real alternative. I'm not saying that this is not the case, it might well be. As a manufacturer, I would be concerned that WK? were 'selling' their car at every opportunity, thus forgoing the benefits of 'my' car.

I would like to see Kit Car and Totalkitcar both test the Python together. Ideally by testing 3 different makes of Cobra and commenting on the merits and pitfalls of each. I realise that testing kitcars in this way is not always practical, but I rekon you would not have too much problem finding comparable cars in terms of engine and power.

[Purple Ak]

I would have thought the ideal place to conduct such a test would be at Total Kit Car Live at Brands Hatch September 17th at least there the whole industry would be there to witness the event. But the Python is not as yet shown in attendance.

[Ex-Biker]

Sounds like an ideal time

[kitcarman]

Don’t worry Big Cheese,
I’m not about to throw mud in your nice clean forum :biggrin: .

Reading the above, I reckon that everybody here can see what the issues were. That said, I think things have moved on. There are now new issues. It’s makes no difference to me whether the car drives well or not. My two concerns are whether it’s safe and whether it’s commercially secure.

The factory owner in Sri Lanka tells me that he’s in the process of evicting Vince and his Python. It took Vince 3 years to set up that factory; so it’s likely to be out of production for another 3 years once the eviction is finally achieved.

The other concern is of safety. The front upper wishbone ball-joint is being used for a purpose for which it wasn’t designed. Nothing new there in that many kit car parts are used to do jobs for which they weren’t designed. However, this is a particularly crucial safety component and there is significant controversy concerning its suitability. Before I instructed any journalist of mine to take it around a track; I’d want a report from STATUS assuring me that all my engineering instincts are wrong :eusa_doh: .

Incidentally, I was in court with Vince concerning his advertising debt the other day. He was ordered to pay me £803.82. ************************ Too personal Den and not necessary on this forum so this bit removed - JG ************************

Den

[JG]

My two concerns are whether it’s safe and whether it’s commercially secure.

This can be said of pretty much any kit car manufacturer though, they go in and out of business quicker than I can keep up with changing the details on this site.

The factory owner in Sri Lanka tells me that he’s in the process of evicting Vince and his Python. It took Vince 3 years to set up that factory; so it’s likely to be out of production for another 3 years once the eviction is finally achieved.

Typically a factory unit is a factory unit, doesn't take 3 years to find another.


The other concern is of safety. The front upper wishbone ball-joint is being used for a purpose for which it wasn’t designed. Nothing new there in that many kit car parts are used to do jobs for which they weren’t designed. However, this is a particularly crucial safety component and there is significant controversy concerning its suitability. Before I instructed any journalist of mine to take it around a track; I’d want a report from STATUS assuring me that all my engineering instincts are wrong :eusa_doh: .

I'm not qualified in this area so can't comment on the safety aspect but I would hope that this sort of scrutiny is performed on any kit car that is tested by Kit Car magazine and any safety concerns are treated the same regardless of manufacturer.


I think you know my position on the whole Python saga Den but I hope you understand that a balanced view must be protrayed.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

[kitcarman]

Hi Big Cheese,
I do know, and respect, your position.

As you well know, there’s a lot of history and emotion in the Monty Python tale. Whilst I think my views are accurate and informed; I accept Ferg’s observation that I’ve “been diverted from [my] original fully justifiable crusade into a poorly judged slanging match not of [my] making.” The result is that I now find it very difficult to draw balanced conclusions.

Your observations represent another view of the same facts. One of our writings represents what the Sun might have said; the other the Times. I’d simply observe that I’ve been proved right in every previously published detail :cool: .

We’ll see what comes out of my more recent concerns. I think the lack of response speaks volumes. I’ve a nose for sound engineering and sound business and both smell fishy to me. Don’t forget, either, that I’m in contact with more facts than those I publish. I’m simply trying to ensure that my readers are well informed and advised. That’s my job :eusa_dance: ! They have been in the past and I believe they are now. Time, as they say, shall tell.

Remember that Vince didn’t owe money, didn’t have a partner and did have a perfect product. We’re all wiser now… please remember who imparted that wisdom and when :eusa_clap: .

I will quibble with some of your balancing observations though:-

There are dodgy kit car firms, but few actually demonstrate their dodgyness by ‘bumping’ the press (not very wise at the best of times – but that’s yet another story). Will I now get my £803.82 or will he hide behind is geographical location? Let’s not forget that what he does with me he can do with anybody :confused: .

In respect to the factory… Finding a building won’t be too hard, but all the staff that were trained have long-since disappeared. There shall be more to moving than simply calling a removals firm.

In respect to the engineering… I’m qualified academically to degree level :eusa_shifty: and have made about 5,000 kit cars :eusa_angel: . I think I know a significant problem when I see one!

Add to the above the ethical problems that my ‘crusade’ started opposing; and it adds up to my feeling justified in adopting my hard line stance. Let’s not forget that this thread is about that ongoing ethical problem.

Den

[JG]

Add to the above the ethical problems that my ‘crusade’ started opposing; and it adds up to my feeling justified in adopting my hard line stance. Let’s not forget that this thread is about that ongoing ethical problem.

Den

Agree with this bit entirely and think Ferg's post above sums up the situation extremely well.

Since this thread started I have read the WKC piece and I must say it is underhand and entirely unethical but at the same time quite clever and people not aware of the goings on will be supportive of WKC.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

[kitcarman]

Hi Big Cheese,
I’m quite certain that most people have already heard my side. They’ll therefore come to the same sad conclusion.

The writing in that magazine is subtle in all but quantity and very sly IMO in what it omits. However, I’ve finally obtained a reaction after 27 months – that’s a result :eusa_clap: . All other reactions have concerned pride, pixels, pictures and pages; but nothing specifically on Python.

The Python’s sold a miserly 8 incomplete kits as a result of an advertising campaign that started in December 2001. And look at the size of that campaign :confused: ! Editorial news every month, the Python in third-party adverts and show reports. A reader’s letter nearly every month and up to eight ‘regular’ advertisements every month.

Ironically, I reckon a more honest and balanced approach (in advertising what was actually available at the time and precisely who was selling it) would have surely resulted in sales of more than 8 kits so far. Furthermore, that would have negated all the accusations and recriminations that have characterised the Python’s illegitimate birth (or still-birth?).

Moreover, I think Mark was right to ask if readers should be concerned because I believe those 8 Pythons have cost the industry 100’s of sales. I wonder what profit was made out of them :cry: ?

Den

[Ex-Biker]

Is it true that WK? and RV Dynamics have offered Kit Car the opportunity to test the Python?

If this is the case and Totalkitcar also have the opportunity, I cannot see why we cannot have a head to head test against other Cobra's on independant grounds (eg. Totalkitcar Live!).

I believe this would give Den and Kit Car enough time to have the engineering checked with STATUS.

John
It is nice to see your opinions of the article that started this thread.
BTW John, is it possible to start a poll half way through a thread? I would like to see how many people reading this would like to see an independant test of the Python, as talked about here.

Den
I know a lot about the things that have gone on within this love (hate) triangle in the past, but I would like to know your thoughts on (or if you have information on) how the rest of the Cobra manufacturers feel about the diclosure within the article.

I do realise many Cobra manufacturers do not consider the Python a threat and/or competitor to their particular car.

[kitcarman]

Hi Mark,
To answer your specific questions:-

No – I haven’t been offered an opportunity to test the car :eusa_doh: save for the ‘open’ invitation in the article in question; which I very much suspect is an insincere smoke screen anyway.

Why would I want to test drive it :confused: ? Nothing said by Ian Stent in respect to Python is disputed by me. He said that Mr Filby, Sally Mitchell and Vince Wright brought it between them in 2001. Vindicating my main concern that Mr Filby :eusa_liar: was reporting as game-keeper; when in fact he’d turned poacher (but forgot to say so). He said that the handling wasn’t right; that improvements are required to its suspension set-up. Proving that the early claims, that it handles better than an original Python, were false. I believe he confirmed that a BMW V8 had never been fitted, rendering the ‘BMW V8 fits perfectly too’ misleading. He said that he couldn’t find a comfortable driving position because the seat is too high and too far forward :arrow: and the steering wheel is in’yer chest. Thus conceding that claims that it’s the tall guys Cobra weren’t true either. So, in fact, I’ve already written Ian Stent’s article as a part-work.

Anyway; what would be the point in Kit Car (or ToTalkItCar for that matter) reiterating such findings? Another test drive wouldn’t resolve the thorny technical and commercial issues. On that subject; I’d point to Stent’s one crass comment. He said words to the effect that he’d read my allegations about the problems in Sri Lanka so he thought he’d check for himself – by driving the car :eusa_shifty: ???? So, it would follow that if I alleged that someone was a thief: Ian Stent would be able to establish the efficacy of my allegation – by driving the person’s car!!!! Damned clever guys at WKC I’d say. As I’ve said, it’s what they don’t say, and the slyness in the way they duck the real issues, that are most revealing to me.

As to your final question regarding what other Cobra manufacturers are saying about the ‘disclosure’. What ‘disclosure :eusa_eh: ’? The ‘disclosure’ was made years ago. The recent ‘admission’ merely confirmed what was already known.

Den

[nbracken]

As a builder and owner of an original Python that I bought from Unique Autocraft in 1991 and spent 3 years building, I find it somewhat depressing that the attempt to resurrect what IMHO was a good quality kit in its original form has so far been far from successful.

I don't know even 10 pct of the facts that have been debated here and other places and have never seen the demo car. Suffice to say however that from the outset I wished the new owners good luck, and even success but to date this has eluded them, at least in the UK.

My car is now with me in Japan where it gets great exercise regularly and continues to give me huge enjoyment.

[Ferg]

Add to the above the ethical problems that my ‘crusade’ started opposing; and it adds up to my feeling justified in adopting my hard line stance. Let’s not forget that this thread is about that ongoing ethical problem.
Den
Agree with this bit entirely and think Ferg's post above sums up the situation extremely well.

Nice to have a couple of good reviews from two guys who's opinion I value!!!!! I was pleased I managed to make an accurate view of what I consider to be the REAL issue that started this whole thing off. What is sad though is that over on the other side of the fence stands a superbly knowledgeable kitcar historian and enthusiast.........

[kitcarman]

Hi Folks,
I’ve just returned from the Harrogate show. It was brilliant!

I was on my own all weekend :confused: , but in terms of takings it was one of my most lucrative :eusa_dance: . The most popular product line was a set of the first 8 Cobra magazines for just £20 a set (which is what I normally get after paying the postman – some issues are quite heavy).

I enjoyed loads of customer conversations – many about you know what!!!! The first was with a couple who purchased the latest Kit Car and Cobra magazines (for Mr Filby I presume) then announced they were happy Python builders. They then ripped into me alleging I was unfair on ‘poor ole Vince :eusa_shifty: ’. As it happened, the very next couple in the queue were the couple I reported upon in the July 2003 issue (they said they paid a £634 deposit to Vince but didn’t get their goods). They spent the next 20 minutes telling me to ignore the previous protest :eusa_clap: and went on to say how pleased they were that I had the courage (and the balls) to keep warning people off.

About an hour later, another disgruntled couple told me their tale of Python woe; then proceeded to ask me specific questions regarding what I knew concerning certain details relevant to the Sri Lankan side of their ‘problem’. Whilst I was answering; a chap interrupted and complained that I was speaking a load of bollocks and that he was another very happy Python bunny. He hadn’t heard the start of the conversation and was bemused at the fact that his ‘testimony’ hadn’t moved the couple one iota. Interestingly he scampered off after finally saying (please read carefully) that he’d received everything and was delighted BUT that he was to receive the rest of his parts in a shipment due in October. I would liked to have finished speaking to the bloke but he was in ‘rant mode’ (he could speak but not listen – one way only).

Some while later, Sally Mitchell approached me to ask if I’d lay off knocking ‘poor ole Vince :eusa_shifty: ’. We spent quite a while discussing Vince’s virtues (and associations and history) until Sally’s eyes welled with tears :eusa_boohoo: . She went scampering back to the Which Twit stand after she realised that I’m not affected by crocodile tears. She’s a past master at it!

As I said; it was a fabulous show :eusa_clap: – well attended and by-and-large was damned good for the industry :eusa_dance: . The aforementioned conversations were, for me, the icing on the cake. I sold literally all the stock I’d taken to the show bar just a few magazines that were thinly covering my display stand at the end. I’ve never come so close to actually running out of things to sell.

I’ve never been recipient of so much praise and encouragement either. Shows like that make being a publisher worth while :cool: .

Den.

[kitcarman]

Hi Mark (and others),
I thought you’d like to know that the Python has now had that independent review that you’ve been wanting to see :biggrin: .

It’s in the September issue of BMW Car magazine. Written by its assistant editor, Dominic Holtam :eusa_dance: . The photography, by Max Earey, is brilliant. The repro and layout, by artist unknown, is truly excellent!

Den :badgrin: .

[JG]

Sounds like you've had an eventful few days Den, whats the jist of the article in BMW magazine - can't be arsed to take a look myself :eusa_snooty:

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

[kitcarman]

Hi John,
They loved its look, but had this to say concerning its engineering and driving :confused: :-

“At my height your head is sticking up above the screen, and, more disconcertingly, the rollover bar :doubt: ”

“Despite the low rev fruitiness, higher up the rev range the Python’s song is blighted by resonance and the result is more soggy flatulence than hard-edged bark :cry: .”

“On lumpier routes the Python is less impressive. Bumps and ruts seem to over-extend or over-compress the suspension, sending a wince-inducing crash through the chassis. Not what you want :eusa_doh: …. And you don’t have to be going fast to bring out these flaws. Anything more than a leisurely lope is enough.
There’s a lack of immediacy in turn-in, too, that doesn’t suit the car’s sporting credentials… :cry: .. there’s just no bite.
The chassis feels like it needs a lot more fine tuning and development… :confused: …fixes are already being worked on… :eusa_shifty: … They are planning to play with camber and toe-out at the front to sharpen up the turn-in too.”

“Peter :eusa_liar: is keen that we come back [I bet he is!!! - Den :eusa_angel: ] once RV’s engineer and head horncho, Vince Wright :eusa_shifty: , has applied some alterations…..”

“He [Peter :eusa_liar: ] reckons that the Python is an eminently useable everyday car. I can’t agree… :eusa_clap: .. the constant niggles and compromises would drive you mad”

Exactly what Stent found except they’ve put what they found rather more factually.

I’d rather not add ‘I told you so’ – but in all honesty I reckon I’m due an apology from some and a big thank you from others. I’ll not hold my breath though.

Den. :cool:

[Purple Ak]

You OK Den? You look a tad Blue :eusa_angel: :eusa_shifty:

[kitcarman]

You OK Den? You look a tad Blue :eusa_angel: :eusa_shifty:

Never been better :eusa_clap: !
I'm astonished at the lack of comment on BMW Car's comments though! After all - there were cries for an independent test - weren't there :confused: ? They really don’t come any more independent than that.
I probably shouldn't have said "I told you so" :eusa_hand:. I’ll never learn.

Den :cool: .

[Ferg]

I'm astonished at the lack of comment on BMW Car's comments though!I don't think there's anything to say to be honest Den. We seem to have gone from selling a car that hasn't been built, to selling a car that needs 'alterations'........

[Ex-Biker]

Ditto Ferg.

[kitcarman]

You OK Den? You look a tad Blue :eusa_angel: :eusa_shifty:
Hi Chris, me ole mate…. I’m worried for you too!

Have you been holding your breath for extended periods, because it seems to me that you’re looking a bit…..

…. Purple!!!!!

Den :biggrin:

[kitcarman]

Hi Mark and Ferg,
You’re right, but even the latest anorexic Which Twit Car? has 6 advertisements for AhhhVD. Claims such as “advanced engineering”, “finely engineered”, “delightfully easy to drive”, “light, responsive, user-friendly” and “hugely strong” are still common currency. The clear impression given is of a well-sorted product from an established, reputable (even clever???) manufacturer.

As a result of such misleading claims; a number of people have purchased Pythons and are presumably continuing to do so - otherwise why are they continuing with the advertisements?

I’d like to know how these customers shall overcome the ‘bite-less’ steering and ‘wince-inducing crashes’ that are evident even at ‘leisurely-lope’ speeds? What about the guy who posted (on another forum) to the effect that he’d purchased his Python mainly because he was lofty? How’s he going to fit into his pride and joy?

Other concerns about the front suspension design; which are even more worrying if the suspension really does ‘bottom’, plus the commercial problems in Sri Lanka all add to the bad smell. I’ve no doubt that this product is rotten in that it’ll never be possible, in the light of what’s already known, to believe anything its manufacturer says about it.

I’ll therefore not be brushing this ‘episode’ under the carpet just yet. As I said in my magazine; a course of antibiotics needs to be taken to the very end. Behind the scenes murmurings indicate that the medicine is in fact working.

Den.

[Ferg]

Den,
I have never wavered from my opinion that to advertise a car giving the impression that various facets of it's appeal have been proved by road-test, whilst at the time of printing those claims the car doesn't exist is unbelievable as well as unacceptable. However, I sometimes worry that people who haven't been aware from the outset and may be coming into the story since the car has actually existed may misunderstand your angle on this............ :cry:

[kitcarman]

Hi Ferg,
OK, I need your help (and/or that of every/anybody on this forum :eusa_doh: ).

I’ve been banging my head :confused: against this phantom Python, on and off, for 29 magazine editions. Ferg reckons I was right :eusa_angel: , initially, to point out that it was being advertised in terms that suggested that it was tried and tested at a time when it didn’t even exist.

It does now exist :eusa_clap: ; but still hasn’t been tried and tested :doubt: (or more accurately, it has been tested and found to be ‘wanting’ and is in need of modification – admitted by the manufacturer :eusa_liar: ) yet it’s still being advertised in terms that very much suggest that it has no problems :eusa_naughty: .

I think the present advertised claims are still grossly misleading :eusa_shifty: .

Please tell me why I’m ill-advised in continuing to expose what I see as this sharp practice :eusa_doh: . That is, after all, what my readers are paying me to do – isn’t it?

I do try to provide enough information, each time I mention the ‘problem’, so as to avoid newbies (to the argument) getting confused: so as to avoid the trap that you’ve mentioned.

Den :cry:

[Ex-Biker]

How about doing an article in Kit Car explaining the real reason for all of the swipes at the Python, explaining that as well as misleading people in the advertising claims, when an independant test was carried out . . . .

You could then invite readers to write in with any questions that they don't feel you have covered. This gives you a follow up article 2 months later.

As long as you keep to the facts and nothing else, I think most people would like to know the whole story.

:eusa_hand: But remember, I don't think John will want it all on this forum.

[kitcarman]

:eusa_hand: But remember, I don't think John will want it all on this forum.

Agreed; and thanks for the pointer with regard my approach.

I’m going to do just that :eusa_dance: .

By the way, I’ve blagged (how’s that supposed to be spelt :eusa_shifty: ?) the BMW Car article for running in the next issue. It would fit well where you placed your dot dot dot dot. It might make the cover of the next Cobra magazine too! (you know how Cobra is derived).

The pics are great and actually the article does say good things :biggrin: as well as bad :badgrin: !

Den.

[kitcarman]

And just when I thought things couldn’t get any worse :cry: . They did….

I’ve been dealing through a middle-man, who’s been passing messages to and from Vince.

Sorry, you may not get a response… for a while , Vince is in Hospital after an attempt was made on his life yesterday :confused: .
I think him a prat for all too many reasons, but I wouldn’t have wished that on him.

Den

[Ferg]

I think him a prat for all too many reasons, but I wouldn’t have wished that on him.Hear, hear. :cry:

[kitcarman]

:eusa_naughty: It gets even worse! :eusa_liar: :doubt: :cry:

[kartman]

Are you going to enlighten us then Den? :confused:

[kitcarman]

Hi Kartman,

The message I was passing to Vince was that we weren’t getting anywhere and that there was no point in continuing discussions unless there was a change in his attitude.

Sorry, you may not get a response… for a while , Vince is in Hospital after an attempt was made on his life yesterday :confused: .

In following e-mails I was given all the gory detail of how he was attacked by 4 ‘professionals’ with dogs :doubt: - and the nature of his injuries (cracked skull :confused: , broken arm, ear ‘mashed’ :cry: with a lump of wood and dog bites from ‘attack dogs’).

It was put to me that I was partly responsible, in that I’d encouraged his Sri Lanlan adversery, and should therefore feel sorry for him and stop printing damaging reports about his crap products and his dodgy dealings with Filby :eusa_liar: . I was warned that the next attack might very well be fatal.

I have a contact in Sri Lanka :eusa_angel: who looked into the matter for me. Vince was found to be fit and well at his place of work.

What a way to attempt to gain endearment and sympathy :eusa_liar: ?

Den.

[vojx]

this thread . . . . :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[kitcarman]

Hi Vojx,
I'm glad that you're finding this entertaining :eusa_clap: !

The BMW Car article is in the November issue :badgrin: , which shall be in the shops from Friday :cool: .

Den.

[Ferg]

I look forward to reading a truly independent review.

[Ferg]

I look forward to reading a truly independent review.Hmmmmmm......

[Patrick]

hmmm I read that review. It was one of the kits I originally looked but decided was not the right one for me.

[Ex-Biker]

Must get a copy . . . .

[kitcarman]

Hi Mark,
I’ll be putting it on-line on my web-site in a day or two…. So you can hold on to your hard-earned!!!! :biggrin:

Den.

[Ex-Biker]

Will check it out soon then . . .

[kitcarman]

Hi Mark,
It's there now if you want to read it.

http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html

The link to the Python article is right at the bottom of the chronology; November 2005

Den

[Ex-Biker]

Den

Don't know if it is my firewall, but can't get the .pdf file to show up. 'Not authorised'

[kitcarman]

Hi Mark,
Have you got problems with all the links :confused: , or just that one? I ask because I know the other links have been downloaded by lots of people :eusa_clap: .

The Python article was only made available as a link yesterday so might be defective. Anyone else got problems :eusa_doh: ?

Den.

[Ferg]

Works fine. :biggrin:

[JG]

Hmm was going to sit down for a bit of reading there but I'm getting a problem with the pdf's as well.

Opened about the first 6 ok then it flakes out, maybe my version of Acrobat reader 5, will update it.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

[M]

Just red the article, Kitcarman.
Since all publicity is good publicity, a well known fact in the promotion industry, your doing a great job, promoting the RV Python, what´s your cut?
Once (and if) RV get their issues sorted with the front suspension and seat, you´ve already rolled out the red carpet for them :eusa_clap:

In my opinion the concept of using one single donor car is brilliant and I wish Vince the best of luck sorting the remaining issues out, I hope that he lets everyone know when he´s done, then even I might consider buying one.


A "filbyfactfile", I mean really, how mature is that???? :icon_redface:

[kitcarman]

Hi M,
Welcome to the party :eusa_dance: !
Just red the article, Kitcarman.
Since all publicity is good publicity, a well known fact in the promotion industry, your doing a great job, promoting the RV Python, what´s your cut?
Oh dear :cry: ; on that basis I’m promoting WKC? too :doubt: !
Once (and if) RV get their issues sorted with the front suspension and seat, you´ve already rolled out the red carpet for them :eusa_clap: ……. I might consider buying one
According to WKC’s November issue :eusa_liar: ; they’ve already sorted all the problems :eusa_liar: , so you’d better place your order – Good luck :eusa_shifty: (you’ll need it).
A "filbyfactfile", I mean really, how mature is that???? :icon_redface:Actually, after nearly two and a half years of skirting around the main issues: I think putting the facts in an open file for all to read is very mature indeed and long overdue :eusa_clap: .
What’s more; I’ve had several congratulatory comments to that effect. Not only that, but several folk have sincerely thanked me for lifting the fog :cool: .

Den

[Ex-Biker]

Managed to down load it in work.

Printed so I can read tonight.

[Ferg]

A "filbyfactfile", I mean really, how mature is that???? :icon_redface:I agree with you on this one Den. All that tit-for-tat stuff in the magazines was a real turn off for a lot of people, putting ONLY the bare facts in the 'Filby file' means that anyone (including the mysterious'M') can have a look at all the pertinent legal documents and draw their own conclusions.
This is, of course, if they are interested or perhaps more importantly, open-minded enough to have a read. I hope we see a reciprocal arrangement from the other side, I want to be IMFORMED on the subject....cut though some of the BULL5HIT!! :eusa_liar:


PS That's my real name above the picture of my car............ :badgrin:

[Purple Ak]

The Whole Thing worked for me :eusa_clap: I'm on Acrobat 7.Something though :eusa_shifty: Try downloading free Adobe Updates :biggrin:

[kitcarman]

Hi Ferg,
Understood, but is ‘Enthusiast’ your family name or your Christian name. :badgrin: LOL!!!! Thanks for your support on this point.

Hi M,
Does ‘M’ really = mysterious? And, more seriously, exactly what do you see as immature in the compilation of this file:-
http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html
I’m genuinely mystified as to why anybody might wish to scoff at the disclosure of raw information. Unless, of course, they’ve got something to hide – but you’re not in that category – are you?

Hi Chris,
Did you learn anything new :eusa_doh: ?

Den :cool:

[M]

I´m just a guy who´s intentions are good
-Oh L please don´t let me be misunderstood.

My interest is purely technical, couldn´t care less about who sleeps with who. :eusa_clap:
And now for something completely different:
What say you all, about the Python chassi issues stated in the article, are they fixable?
In my book the front suspension set up on the Python is basically a smart solution, creating less unsprung weight with the coilovers mounted within the construction. However it´s crucial to get all the angles, springloads and length of the wishbonelevers right to take full advantage of BMW´s McPearson design with built in anti dive and so on.

Den, you say you´ve been on this quest for moore than two years :biggrin: , can´t you just try to be a man about it and move on with your life?

Ta da

[Ex-Biker]

'M'

I have no wish to be dragged into this, but everything is fixable (one way or the other).
However it is my understanding that Den is asking why is it not right in the first place and if it is easily fixable, why has it not been done.
The handling of a kit is fundamental to it's ability. This ability is fundamental to the builders / buyers of the kit.

If Mercedes launched a car that didn't handle, how would this effect the sales etc. Oh, they did! It seriously effected their sales too.

[kitcarman]

Hi M,
I note your use of certain historical (in this matter) clichés Oh Lord please don´t let me be misunderstood.

…. couldn´t care less about who sleeps with who. :eusa_clap:

And now for something completely different…..

…..you´ve been on this quest for moore than two years :biggrin: They tend to indicate that you’ve been following this debate for some time. Why haven’t you posted previously?

You were asked one simple question, yet answered another.
A "filbyfactfile", I mean really, how mature is that???? :icon_redface:I asked why you thought a Fact File was immature. You responded:- :biggrin: , can´t you just try to be a man about it and move on….Which seems to reiterate your initial point. So, in what sense is this http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html Fact File immature in your view?

Mark has actually summed-up part of my concern very well. Why does this car still have such serious handling/construction defects after being ‘on sale’ for 4 years? Mercedes did recover because they addressed their problem. They certainly didn’t accuse their critics of immaturity :eusa_naughty: !

So, exactly what is immature in my compiling a Fact File? Does anybody else believe it to be immature?

Den

[gpdude]

Hi Den,

Can't believe this is still going on!

I must admit the Filbyfacts make interesting reading though! :biggrin:
I know both of you (albeit only a little bit...) Didn't learn much new stuff, pretty much figured things out on my own over the years and now I see them confirmed.
I haven't had any problems with Filby, I haven't had any problems with you. In fact you learned me quite a bit about the industry. What I know is no-one in the industry is without faults. Who's to blame? I wouldn't know. Who's not to blame? I wouldn't know either... All I know is that this sort of stuff happens frequently.

On a side note...
That Python being the only Cobra using BMW donor parts... That's what I've been hearing all the time. Wasn't there Willys' L&B Anaconda using BMW 3-series parts? I know he was working on it a few years ago...
If it's around, why not compare?

Wishing you all the best,
Bart

[kitcarman]

I must admit the Filbyfacts make interesting reading though! :biggrin:
... All I know is that this sort of stuff happens frequently.
Hi Bart,
I wish I could agree, but it’s not normal for a magazine to publish the very opposite of the truth :eusa_liar: . It certainly doesn’t happen often!
In the case of the Howell reports; they were deliberately calculated to do as much harm as possible :eusa_liar: .
The very same is the case in its reporting of Python IMO :eusa_liar: , except the aim was (is) to do as much good as possible.
In both cases; readers are the losers - they were severely misled :eusa_hand: . It represents a severe abuse of trust if you ask me! One that’s far from acceptable or normal.

The difference with the Anaconda is that Willy is going to build it first – then make his claims later :eusa_dance: . What a contrast!

Den :cool: .

[Ferg]

The difference with the Anaconda is that Willy is going to build it first – then make his claims later :eusa_dance: . What a contrast...and that is really the big difference.

Incidentally, the judge's summing up of the Sumo case was quite incredible. The way he reduced the amount of each claim in a rational way was facinating. In fact, the bit about gardening in the snow was bordering on funny....

[gpdude]

Hi Bart,
I wish I could agree, but it’s not normal for a magazine to publish the very opposite of the truth :eusa_liar: . It certainly doesn’t happen often!
In the case of the Howell reports; they were deliberately calculated to do as much harm as possible :eusa_liar: .
The very same is the case in its reporting of Python IMO :eusa_liar: , except the aim was (is) to do as much good as possible.
In both cases; readers are the losers - they were severely misled :eusa_hand: . It represents a severe abuse of trust if you ask me! One that’s far from acceptable or normal.

The difference with the Anaconda is that Willy is going to build it first – then make his claims later :eusa_dance: . What a contrast!

Den :cool: .

Den, no no no no! You misread my post I think.

I DO understand why you have a problem with all this, and I DO think the Python story is totally misleading.
I just meant to say that when I was involved in kit-cars, I was surrounded by people 'in the know' and so I learned from 30 years of experience... And let's just say the Python story is -like I said- the rule rather than the exeception. So all this is just a confirmation from what I learned back then.

On the other hand, let's be honest here, there's very few saints about in the kitcar industry is there?! :doubt: :eusa_dance:

Let's summarise:
WKC, every now and then I might go to a shop and get me a copy but I don't buy it... Never did, never will. :wink:
'Times they are a changing'... well, not really... :wink:

Edit:

To make things clear...
My regard for WKC may not be high -especially content-wise, I'm not too impressed by KCM either. Amateurism rules. And that's a shame.
Let's leave it here OK.

[kitcarman]

Hi Bart,
I’m really glad that we’ve cleared up that misunderstanding. Did you know that you’re the first manufacturer to go ‘on the record’ in affirming your understanding of the nature of Fib’s :eusa_liar: . Most have done so privately. Without doubt; he’ll contact you in the next week accusing you of slander/libel :confused: .

Hi Ferg,
That gardening in the snow bit was very funny at the time :eusa_clap: (last page of Judgment, Dec 2000). The Judge’s retort “I won’t bother you with loss of earnings :he’d have been here anyway” so clearly summed-up the judges opinion of Howell. He really was an ignorant, obnoxious, argumentative, dick-head!!! The Judge made that perfectly clear throughout; I think.

Yet Fib’s :eusa_liar: published just exactly his one-sided account and only his account (again and again). Fib’s :eusa_liar: warned me as I left the Court that I hadn’t heard the end of the matter. How right he was :eusa_doh: !

That said, he hasn’t exactly heard the end of it either – has he? Sow the wind….. Reap what you sow…. What goes around….


Hi M :eusa_shifty: ,
As you can see :eusa_hand: ; some folk are learning a great deal of detail from the documents. So, are you going to say why you think publishing them ( http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html ) is immature?

Den :cool:

[M]

Let´s pretend that the bloke writing the article is used to testing various BMW´s.
Since BMW cars are known for great handling he´s got to have a more than average measurements of standards, then maybe the Python`s handling is as good as the handling of let´s say an old Sierra by comparison….? :eusa_think:

There´s no mention of the bodywork in the article, so I assume there is no worries in that area?

Hi :cool: Den, -No I won´t try to explain why it is immature to create a “Filbyfactfile” on the internet, you have to figure that one out for your self, maybe time will tell….

M

[JG]

Den's 'fact file' was something that was requested by a number of people that were following the saga. Posting on forums was becoming tedious as the same stuff was being said over and over. A reference for the goings on was asked for and seen as a good idea and Den has obliged. I personally don't see anything wrong or immature about it but I do think it's sad that 2 peoples lives have been blighted by this - you only get one crack at it after all.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

[kitcarman]

Hi M,
Listen to yourself :confused: .
Your previous post asserted:-
My interest is purely technical…..

However, you soon move to a galaxy far, far away:-
Let´s pretend that the bloke writing the article…….

……..No, I won´t try to explain why it is immature…..you have to figure that one out for your self
Your point is about as technical as an episode of Star Wars :doubt: (or a technical feature in WCK? for that matter :cry: ).

Den

[M]

Ok, :cool: Den thank´s for your pointer, back to the tecnical side:
So, Den, you agree that the handling equals that of an old Sierra and that the remaining chassi issues are fixable and the bodywork is OK???

M

[JG]

I know this is aimed at Den but would like to add that anything is fixable, we're only talking bits of welded metal here, anyone with a modicom (sp) of chassis design pedigree could fix it.

As for the bodywork, well my own opinion was that it is nothing special. I was not impressed with what I saw at the shows, not the worst I've seen but certainly not up to other makes standards. The show car has slight ripples down the sides (only slight) and the CSM can be seen through the gel coat. All fixable if spraying the car but nothing to shout about.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

[kitcarman]

Hi M,
It’s always a problem with joining a conversation late in the day; so let me reiterate my very first post on this subject:-
I reckon that everybody here can see what the issues were. That said, I think things have moved on. There are now new issues. It’s makes no difference to me whether the car drives well or not. My two concerns are whether it’s safe and whether it’s commercially secure.

The factory owner in Sri Lanka tells me that he’s in the process of evicting Vince :eusa_shifty: ….

The front upper wishbone ball-joint is being used for a purpose for which it wasn’t designed…. there is significant controversy concerning its suitability.

Incidentally, I was in court with Vince concerning his advertising debt the other day. He was ordered to pay me £803.82.
I believe the public is being misled by dishonest publicity :eusa_liar: .

Even if the chassis can be made straight and strong; the fact remains that the company making it is bent and weak. One aspect of it’s ‘bentness’ is in the fact that Vince :eusa_shifty: still hasn’t paid his Judgment debt (FFF May 05).
Another is in the reports in November's WKC :eusa_liar: ?

Den.

[kitcarman]

Hi M,
I’ve just added a link to Fib’s :eusa_liar: latest reports on Python in the fact file (Nov 05 http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html ).

How and why are AhhhVD :eusa_shifty: going to fix problems they haven’t got :eusa_doh: ?

Fib’s :eusa_liar: has shifted his position from “fixes are being worked on” to asserting that all Python chassis (except the one and only example on the road :doubt: ) are OK. Specifically: he :eusa_liar: said, of the latest demo “Its chassis is RV’s slightly redesigned and stiffer assembly, as supplied to all UK customers so far”.

In other words, he’s :eusa_liar: reiterating the yarn that VW :eusa_shifty: spun to me; to the effect that the problems were solved before they were even discovered :eusa_clap: . So, whether it’s right or wrong, the Python that we’ve all seen and read about is the Python that any foolish purchasers shall get :confused: .

The question then arises as to which version of what we’ve read is correct. There’s not much doubt: even WKC :eusa_liar: ? (in a flush of half-hearted integrity :biggrin: ) admitted that its handling isn’t right and that it isn’t comfortable :cry: .

That was some admission concerning a kit that costs upward of £12,000 to build! When you going to order yours M? Personally; I’d advise you to buy a kit with genuine provenance :eusa_angel: . All of them would take a BMW engine if that’s what takes your fancy. Chances are that they'll still be there in a year - which is more than can be said of AhhhVD :eusa_shifty: .

Den :cool:

[M]

Thanks for some technical input, finally. I think this is more interesting to discuss, after all you aren’t marrying the salesman, it’s the product you have to live with.
To summarize:
Major front suspension issues.
Ride height far too high.
Bodywork not the best quality, ripples and all.
Exhaust not tuned.
Priced 3545£

Cold hard facts I like that :icon_twisted:

Couldn’t help noticing the irony, Den, if some kits actually are sold then Vince might afford paying his debt, what a bummer :sad:

M

[kitcarman]

Cold hard facts I like that :icon_twisted:
Which are that:-
This mediocre :confused: , half-baked :doubt: , product is misrepresented :cry: as being much better than it actually is by a demented moron :eusa_shifty: working in close relationship with a bent journalist :eusa_liar: .

Couldn’t help noticing the irony, Den, if some kits actually are sold then Vince might afford paying his debt, what a bummer :sad:

There’s no irony whatever. Vince :eusa_shifty: never had the slightest intention of paying from day one!
The only reason I issued the claim was to get to the bottom of Fib’s :eusa_liar: involvement. It was worth the £50 issue fee to watch Fib's :eusa_liar: squirm before the District Judge for two hours :eusa_clap: . As to the Judgment – I’ll have some more fun with that later.

If you’re right – if Vince :eusa_shifty: really is insolvent – he shouldn’t be trading – should he?

Den :cool:

[JG]

Ok, my smileyometer is indicating that this thread be locked now

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com