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Hi Darren,
I’m barred from PistonHeads, but I’d love to enter into debate with you and I’m quite certain that your insight, as a manufacturer, will be welcome by others here.
I’ve taken the liberty of re-posting what you said in that ‘exclusive’ environment. I hope that’s OK with you and with John. Would you be prepared to enter into debate here - on how your views might improve the lot of this industry?
Den
dozracing wrote:
As a kit car manufacturer i thought i would share my opinion on the industry.
The primary reason that its so small and everyone is having a hard time is that the industry is so insular. We have 3 industry magazines, and yet the circulation is tiny. They reckon Which Kit Car is lucky to sell 3,500 copies a month. Now even if you could consider the total readership as 3 times that amount, you are not reaching very many people. Bearing in mind a lot of these readers will already be owners or builders, you don't have many people to try and sell too.
The bickering between the magazines, hasn't helped the industry look very professional. Also if you read the magazines, there is very little technical content. If you read these forums, you'll notice that most of the builders are very interested in the technical details and merits of each kit. So perhaps they are not writing the magazines in an interesting way.
What i would like to see is an industry body, which is practically likely to come out from the magazines, that pushes the industry to a wider market.
When i'm in the workshop and let people walk in off the street i find that there are an awful lot of people who are really interested in the cars, and the idea of buying one. But they know nothing of how to go about it, and they have never bought a magazine etc. I think we should be trying to get to these people and tell them all about it, and how to get involved.
If the industry was mre professional, and bsiness like. I think it would start to thrive again. In my business we are on a marketing mission to go back to our roots and find out what our market wants, and to try and get the business across to these people. The market being the type of age, gender, status and technical competance that would be interested in the cars, not neccessarily the people currently buying the kit car magazines and visiting the shows. I believe its this approach that will make us successful, and could make the whole industry bigger and more successful if it were to do the same.
Hi Darren,
I’m barred from PistonHeads, but I’d love to enter into debate with you and I’m quite certain that your insight, as a manufacturer, will be welcome by others here.
Den
Den are you still barred?! I thought that there was a time limit and an end to the saga.......
I like your thread title " Where are we going" ?, I would love to know from you, and others in the media,manufacturing, potential clients and more, where are we all going ? what do you think the kit industry is going to look like in 2010?
- What new kitcar designs you invision
- new donors
- prices of kits
- kitcar design concepts
- potential markets
- new niches
- What needs to be inproved by manufacturers
- media events - future trends
Den are you still barred?! I thought that there was a time limit and an end to the saga.......
So did I…. And so did PetrolTed at the start…. Then he changed his mind. It seems that he believes that I posted there through a third party (which I didn’t) and thereby burnt my bridges.
That's his loss. I’ve nothing to be ashamed of…. Everything I said there turned out to be true. Even the chap who fronted most of the arguments against me has learnt the hard way. He rejected what I said…. purchased a kit from the person(s) I was warning about…. and finds himself with little more than a pile of scrap.
Fuoriserie wrote:
- What new kitcar designs you invision
- new donors
- prices of kits
- kitcar design concepts
- potential markets
- new niches
- What needs to be improved by manufacturers
- media events - future trends
That is enough for now
Italo
It certainly is enough - and way beyond my ability to answer. I report what I see; I can’t predict the future. I am different in that I can perhaps influence the future more than most.
It certainly is enough - and way beyond my ability to answer. I report what I see; I can’t predict the future. I am different in that I can perhaps influence the future more than most.
Den.
Just for the sake of discussion and future trends in manufacturing investment, maybe info like this could plan the design of new kits..
Hardly much to debate IMO, Darren is pretty much spot on in his view.
Been saying for a long time that we need 'new blood' and that means attracting people to both reading the mags and learning from manufacturers.
One of the things I noticed at Goodwood was how many manufacturers were advertising their kits as a specialise 'built' car.
Mark, I totally agree with you !, we need new blood, new ideas and new concepts, what was true a few years ago is now too old to improve or adapt.
- We should be looking to new concepts, just like the new Onyx Mongoose, sell them as specialist built cars, or bespoke specialsit cars, because that is very close to what they really are, one-off sports cars.
- Taylored for each customer as a bespoke suit.
Improving the image means that, new kits should be friendlier to build by the potential customer, and improve customer service.
- Create an association that will lobby, whatever event will show the best specialist kits. Events should be considered as a great venue for specialist kitcars.
From race circuits, to historic events, that can create an interest for these cars.
Manufacturers and media should meet and decide where they want to go next? whith what? how? and what is it that the specialised media can do for them.
I'm under the impression that everyone is running this alone!, and by doing so this industry will eventually implode.....
The media is paramount, if this industry can survive the downsizing and restructuring it's going through at tne moment.
The media needs to create new projects designed to help manufacturters expand their potential client base....
I reckon if a few smaller companies got together and did a kit car display at some major petrolhead events like Goodwood, it would seriously improve the profile of the industry.
I know this has been said in the other thread, but kits need to be more modular and easier to assemble.
Also the idea of taking a Saxo (etc) stripping it of the dash, engine, wiring loom etc and assembling the lot into a new body / kit would take the modular step one stage further and let the owner feel as if he has the same quality as he would from a production car.
I reckon if a few smaller companies got together and did a kit car display at some major petrolhead events like Goodwood, it would seriously improve the profile of the industry.
.
I get the feeling we are both talking to the converted , but you are right on this one, someone needs to take the first step, and in my opinion it should be the manufacturers and after that the Kit Media. The media support would be essential for a switch in perception.
Getting manufacturers to think and band together with others will be the difficult part.....
.....someone needs to take the first step, and in my opinion it should be the manufacturers and after that the Kit Media. The media support would be essential for a switch in perception.
Getting manufacturers to think and band together with others will be the difficult part.....
I agree with this. What I’m trying to get my head around is precisely what steps can and should be taken.
That’s why I posted Darren’s PH post in which he said “What i would like to see is an industry body, which is practically likely to come out from the magazines, that pushes the industry to a wider market.”
I was hoping Darren might post here to elaborate and explain what he means. I’m particularly interested to know how it “is practically likely to come out from the magazines”.
I would say though that industry bodies haven’t worked in the past. Sadly, they’ve been devisive and destructive.
So did I…. And so did PetrolTed at the start…. Then he changed his mind. It seems that he believes that I posted there through a third party (which I didn’t) and thereby burnt my bridges.
.
I find it amazing that you are still banned, especially since the 'other party' that was involved openly posted as someone else and used quite frankly shocking language etc all the time.
I also still think you have a lot to add and that people would want to listen on these forums...... I don't miss the arguments as I too found them very stressful however I suspect we have all moved on from there.
kitcarman wrote:
That's his loss. I’ve nothing to be ashamed of…. Everything I said there turned out to be true. Even the chap who fronted most of the arguments against me has learnt the hard way. He rejected what I said…. purchased a kit from the person(s) I was warning about…. and finds himself with little more than a pile of scrap.
.
I do not agree with your first sentace as I think it the PH members loss and yours as its an excellent source of info for you, I'll not comment on your second part of that sentance.....
HOWEVER I have to say your last sentance is entirelly acurate, I did reject your advice and I lost a lot of money and will be happy if I get £1 for the kit on ebay.
kitcarman wrote:
It certainly is enough - and way beyond my ability to answer. I report what I see; I can’t predict the future. I am different in that I can perhaps influence the future more than most.
Den.
I'd have to agree with Mark, the inustry does need new blood.....
My thoughts are that there are plenty of max power boys who spend more on modding their cars than our kits cost.... they also tend to lose all their cash on resale!
maybe this is a market we should be trying to tap?
How about some joint shows or something similar?
As an ex boy racer (hounest) I once took my Ultima to the largest UK show and ran the quarter mile, I had loads of interest in the car and it even had pics published..... if some of these boys realised they could have a car like that or others for similar money to their 'modded' car and it be worth what they spent I'm sure there would be many converts.
I do remember PH doing a joint show with a custom car organisation.
I am new to the kit car scene, but from my own observations i can see the industry having issues in coming years, suitable donor cars are getting harder to find, how many sierra diffs/ford type 9 gearboxes are left etc... hell the scrappy near me hasnt got any RWD fords, iirc the only RWD cars he has are bmws.
With the lack of donor parts i can see it really limiting some builds, engines should be ok, even if manufactuers get silly with ECUs you can also go to a megasquirt/emerald for example, but it was drivetrain parts that i could see vanishing.
Hi Eddy,
Nobody here disagrees with your evaluation of the problem. The debate centres on how best the industry can ‘take its next step’.
My observation is that those next steps are being taken. For example, there are now at least 4 Mazda MX5 based kits. There are more BMW based kits in the pipeline. A few kits are available for modern FWD mechanical parts; like Marlin’s 5exi and the new Mongoose - more shall follow. As time goes on, these designs shall improve and others shall appear until some landmark is reached.
I’ve got, probably, more interest in this industry’s success than anybody else on this forum. For my part, I’m confident that things are on the mend.
Hi!
Kitcarman said: "There are more BMW based kits in the pipeline."
So finally a more modern approach then Granada or even worse, pre war Jaguar donors. Interesting.
Anyone of those BMW ones being a cobra replica? Tell us more! (whithout mentioning the existing P*****, please.)
Hi!
Anyone of those BMW ones being a cobra replica? Tell us more! (whithout mentioning the existing P*****, please.)
Hi M,
It’s no secret that L&B cars of Belgium are working on their BMW based Anaconda Cobra replica. An Anaconda prototype chassis was seen at Stoneleigh 05.
You want to know more - well, they’ve got a novel approach to marketing. They are actually designing and testing it first; then intend to sell it with claims based on factual observations/experiences. Revolutionary – hey?
Well the L&B is a 3 series based kit, with a single donor you'd end up with a 2.5 litre straight six , however the single donor concept is no doubt the future.
The guys at Factoryfive sell more kit cars then most. Check out their approach at factoryfive.com. All you need is their kit and a single donor car then you have everything to complete your build! Pity them Mustangs aren't that common over here and then of course the taxes importing from non EU countries, say no more...
The guys at Factoryfive sell more kit cars then most. Check out their approach at factoryfive.com. All you need is their kit and a single donor car then you have everything to complete your build!
Hi M,
Interesting point you make there. Curiously, it’s exactly the same point as the proprietor of the unnameable product made in his magazine this month.
Which? wrote:
Current top selling Cobra replica kit in USA is a budget offering from Factory Five….. based on Mustang….. the company recons to have sold 6,000 kits…..
He also reckons, in the same self-promotion, that the American dealer of the unnameable product could sell up to 50 units each month. I reckon he’ll need a good lawyer if he does! Those Yanks aren’t too forgiving of technical problems.
In your (familiar) style…
As mentioned I have scrapped the kit I had and have started my own from scratch, I'm using new Porsche 996 hubs and hearings within new upights and have had suspension made to my own spec.
It's definatelly a challenge designing a car from scratch, but I can see the end car well surpasing my previous Ultima with a bonus of it costing me less, so its definatelly worth it......
I've recently updated my site, I'd certainly welcolm your comments on the body. Probably not here though as its a bit of a thread hijak.
Hi Den..
Why not order their (Factoryfives) free infopack Which includes a superb DVD and then make your mind up instead of beliveing everything you read....
Kitcarman said:
"Originally Posted by Which?
Current top selling Cobra replica kit in USA is a budget offering from Factory Five….. based on Mustang….. the company recons to have sold 6,000 kits….."
Calling their kit a "budget offering" is an insult, in my opinion.
Where are We going? - No where it seems, stuck in "Which" direction ?..
Hi Den..
Why not order their (Factoryfives) free infopack Which includes a superb DVD and then make your mind up instead of beliveing everything you read....
Kitcarman said:
"Originally Posted by Which?
Current top selling Cobra replica kit in USA is a budget offering from Factory Five….. based on Mustang….. the company recons to have sold 6,000 kits….."
Calling their kit a "budget offering" is an insult, in my opinion.
Where are We going? - No where it seems, stuck in "Which" direction ?..
What makes you think I believed what I read?
What’s for sure is that no Mustang based kit is going to be the answer to any perceived problem in the UK, nor will it influence direction over here.
As to Which direction: journalists should be careful to report what’s actually happening rather than what they’d like see to happening. Reporting that X or Y kit might sell up to 50 units a month is just crass in my opinion. It also distorts and misrepresents the truth – just as was intended.
What I’d like to know, is how come you and Which share precisely the same off-topic fixation at exactly the same time and in relation to exactly the same kit?
What’s for sure is that no Mustang based kit is going to be the answer to any perceived problem in the UK, nor will it influence direction over here.
As to Which direction: journalists should be careful to report what’s actually happening rather than what they’d like see to happening. Reporting that X or Y kit might sell up to 50 units a month is just crass in my opinion. It also distorts and misrepresents the truth – just as was intended.
What I’d like to know, is how come you and Which share precisely the same off-topic fixation at exactly the same time and in relation to exactly the same kit?
Den
i've looked at M's posts, all 9 of them since November 2005, and they tend to be a little provocative towards kitcarman. who is hiding behind the letter? no info in his profile - is he embarrassed of who he is? or who he works for?
perhaps JG should encourage everyone to use their real names, and not hide behind anonymous monikers?
What’s for sure is that no Mustang based kit is going to be the answer to any perceived problem in the UK, nor will it influence direction over here.
Agree with you there, them Mustangs are to rare on this side of the pond.
Question remains, how come they can sell most kits in the world, (acc. to their website)? Is it just beacause it has the Mustang as donor?
Is it provokative to have an opinion, Vojx?
PS The Which mag isn't even availiable where I live. DS
I think the only concern here is that many of the people posting on here have been here for some time and all know of the issues that have gone on (and printed in the mags).
On another webforum there was so much 'baiting' and accusations that a few people were banned.
Den's knowledge is invaluable, so many people are concerned when things are mentioned regarding a certain magazine and certain manufacturer. Den is keen to fight his corner.
It would be nice if you introduced yourself (in way of your profile). Everyone here is interested in making friends.
, however the single donor concept is no doubt the future.