MadaboutKitcars

Hi, just wanted to introduce myself to the forum. My name's Edd, I live near shrewsbury, I work as a vet and have a keen interest in surgery. I've dreamed of being in a position to buy a kit car for too long and hope I can finally muster the time and funds before my wife consigns both of these to children!! I've spent some time researching which way to jump, and hope the 5EXi is the way to go?!!!

I'd like to say a HUGE thanks to Richard Hope who took me out for a drive sunday and helped me see just how much I HAVE to get one!! I suspect I may have to spend some time on this forum picking peoples brains as tho I would like to consider myself fairly adept with most DIY etc, I fear a kitcar is a whole new ball game.

I'm hoping to place my order as soon as marlin come back off holiday next week!! I'd appreciate any advice on how to deal with Marlin and the sorts of things I should be asking etc. I'm looking at the SEAT leon donor car due to cost and performance, is there anyone out there that's finished one yet or are we still working out how they fit together??

Anyway, thanks in advance for your help
all advice greatfully recieved
Edd

Hi Edd,

Welcome....I'm on the edge of Crewe, so not too far away, (1.6 K series that you are welcome to view if you want to...built Sept '06)

It's on SORN at the moment (tax has just run out) and I have a list of improvements to finish over the winter (you never actually finish building!)

....if you want to build a car, then I recommend it. Personally, I really enjoyed my build...but would have appreciated better build instructions and data settings (toe, camber, torque settings etc)...this forum helped A LOT!

Value for money ??......a used Lotus Elise (S1 or S2) or VX220 is a better deal, for a similar car, with much better resale value........but no good if you want to build it yourself!

Build costs vary from £9500 - £20K+ depending on spec. (this buys a lot of Lotus!)

...you pay your money, and take your choice.

ATB

Rich

As BigRich above. It is not a bolt togther job like some other kit cars. So don't think that. And if your going the Seat route, expect some big challenges. Especially for a new first time builder. But I think the correct choice if you want to go "bigger power" route. Or Type R route I would concider. Mr Dry is you man to compare VW and Honda as he has experience with both. Only thing I can guess is that the VW engine will be a less revvy engine. A bit on par with the T series turbo I would guess. Lower revs etc for power.

As you will be one of the first (a couple new builders just started). I think the only Seat based Marlin on the road at the moment is there race one.

I would suggest get out in as many different engined cars as possible before you decide. Speak to the owners about the car, etc

If you look here, you can find the EXI owners.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=37.0625,-95.677068&spn=34.259599,77.34375&z=4

Only owners that have asked to be put on the map though. There's another Turbo owner near Colchester way. But your getting to the time of year where some people are taking there cars off the road for winter. So possibly bad time to get test runs.

We are a good friendly bunch here. And will help each other out along the way. Any questions, ask away.

To help you start, Mark Evans (Race car is born series) is a vet as well.

Greetings
With regards to the SEAT option. Its a new thing to Marlin. I am the first to have the factory approved SEAT package, I went for a 180bhp APP engine, the 225 BAM engine are out there but they are rare.
I also have the first factory installed 6 speed gearbox.

If you buy now you will also get the new GTR chassis, to highlight the difference the chassis is gery and not white, it has more bracing around the engine area, and the front is also beefed up.
Suspension is also updated, my kit is 4th gen suspension.

I am really impressed with the quality of what I have delivered.

To everyone else on the forum, my Kit (Modules 1 and 2) were delivered a week ago, and I have started my build. [url]www.stsa.co.uk[/url]

Cheers Steve

Glad you enjoyed the ride out Edd! It was a great excuse to go for a drive.
For those who weren't there, I'd spent some of Saturday setting up a new alignment and altering my steering arms but hadn't completed a full bump steer check. Unfortunately this meant the handling was, ahem, too "interesting" to really press on, but the honda engine can still always get a passenger's attention in a straight line!
Richard

Welcome.

I echo Rich's comments above.

If you want to build a car, then the 5EXI will give you great satisfaction as it comes together, and puts a big tick in the "skills" box. You'll meet some interesting characters on your journey, and if you've not done anything similar before, you'll enjoy honing your skills and thinking your way through problems.

If what you want is purely to get a good cost effective, and capable track car, the better route is an Elise / VX220, which if too slow as stock, you could slot in a 1.8t or supercharged Honda K20.

I've driven a number of modified VWs with a 1.8t fitted, have experience of driving an EP3 Type-R, and my 5EXI has a Honda K20A2 in it coupled to a Hondata ECU. The power delivery of the two engines is very different, and the 1.8t definitely packs a serious mid-range wallop. For a given chassis mass, a 1.8t with the same peak power as Honda K20, will propel a car faster. The throttle response, and adjustability of the K20 is better than the 1.8t.... I'd prefer a track orientated car to have the K20 for purity, but for straight line wallop I'd go 1.8t, especially as extracting more power is quite easy.

Enjoy whatever you choose.

John.

A couple of choices then.

Honda - Revvy engine with plenty of knowledge with fitting it to the EXI. Plenty of people already been there and done it so you can get good advise.
1.8T - Nice engine and less revvy. More lazy I would guess compared top the honda. But unknown experience with builds outside Marlin. So basically solving problems together as the build prgresses, contacting Marlin a far bit or discussing with each other.

Cheapest way would be T series Turbo. Plenty of torque and been done as well. But years are catching up with it now as the engine has not been in production for a number of years. But still a cracking engine. At 200 BHP, the car felt very angry, hence me crashing it. Detuning it to about 170BHP, made the car feel more normal and acceptable for normal driving.

Geeze this has started to make me think again. What the hell I'm I doing going for 300ish BHP. But suppose disconnecting the N75 boost controller, will make the car about I would guess 200BHP.

Along any build, you will probably have an idea of how you would like to do certain things, deviating from the standard build.

What ever the build, it's not going to be a cheap build.

welcome

Wow, so many replies. Realy appreciate your comments, nice to hear from like minded people. I appreciate the warm welcome. To reply to specific comments:
BigRich, thanks for the offer of alook at your car, may well take you up on it depending time. 50% of this adventure is wanting to build a car for myself, so it sounds like I've picked a good enough car. The other 50% is wanting an exciting car in terms of looks AND drive. I figure its all about that big silly grin they give you!! But yes, I suspect it will cost a bit more than I want to pay, but hope this forum will help me try and pre-empt too many unexpected surprises.

Limpabit - Yes , just a little bit nervous about build skills, but I thrive on hands on jobs, of which I figure there will be no shortages. In terms of donor, the seat leon seems much more available, and cheaper than the civic. Plus thanks for the map of other marlin builders could come in handy.

Nutter- Good to hear positive feed back so far. I'm very interested how your build goes as I'm hoping you will come across and solve specific leon donor problems before I have to!!! I hope you wouldnt mind keeping me up to date with any specific issues you find? I'd really appreciate any help you can give.

Rich Hope, hope you've managed to tame the front end ok?

John, appreciate your comments. I'm really hoping to be able to use the car as much as possible, and even for the daily commute. I'm planning a doored version (yes the corrigated roofing look!!). I'm fairly set on the audi 1.8t version as long as there's no obveous hurdles. My only fear is my lack of actual mechanical experience and ability to iron out the 'kinks' of a relatively unknown engine layout. I guess we'll see!!

Thanks very much for you time replying to this.
Edd

Sure No problem, follow my build on my website
contact me on the forum, PM, email. Your more than welcome.

Marlin have the VW range of engine in their race cars, and the differences between the new and older chassis is large.
People have said they couldnt get the 6-speed gearbox into the chassis, but Mark had no problem making it fit into the GTR chassis.

So far I am into week one of my build, and am still cutting, glueing and rivetting panels to the chassis. In terms of moving forwards with the engine, not got there yet.
I also have to figure out the wiring loom, as there is not a VAG loom available for the EXI, not a challenge I feel being an electronic/electrical engineer by trade. I will be feeding back my loom into Marlin.

Another thing to note if going the VAG route, is the ECU, the immbolizer can be disabled, and the ECU re-chipped.

Have you seen this news?


http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=20758

In brief...

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Devon-based racing and kitcar maker Marlin is planning to introduce a new 'ultra-modern GT' next year, with a roof and a raft of aerodynamic upgrades that will be honed on the race track.

The new car is a development of the 5EXi, a 600kg lightweight racing and/or road car that Marlin has been campaigning in the Castle Combe GT Championship for the last three years.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There may be more intrinsic value in the new model would be my imeadiate thought.

To be sure there is no market for built 5exi's so you got to really want one to buy a new kit. MikeR's car is an outstanding build, but Mike cannot find a buyer.

If anyone offered me my outlay to date I would sell and buy a Cat D.
I am 95% to road legal complete but the IVA will add little value to the car.

You hit the nail on the head there. It's a pitty Marlin could not cater for the older Marlins as well. Could be work in progress I guess.

I think it is all down to the big differences in the rear end on the later chassis.
Which are noticeable, but that is down to "evolution"

Interesting looking at your delivery photos the design of the front has changed in front of the petrol tank is now a bolt on section, that looks to have changed where the rad mounts etc.

David.

Not sure if the rad mounts have changed postion, they are in the front bolt on section, I think the mounts may also be bigger, to hold the intercooler as well.
From what I recall the biggest change is at the rear. There isn't a removal bolt on section at the back, so the engine cannot "slide" out it must now be lifted out.

Looking at the chassis there are a number of differences, but in terms of fitting the 02M gearbox, the biggest difference between your car and John's is the inclination of the engine. John's is at a stock angle, whereas yours looks to be leaning forward by a fair angle. Are you going to fit a baffled sump? Presumably Marlin do this on their race cars, to avoid any starvation issues resulting from decreasing the effectiveness of the pickup.

yeah the rear is same as mine, I didnt have a removeable back section.

I agree the engine looks to be fitted more level than mine. Although the K series can be canted at quite an angle without issue, I had more issue in that it had moved back and some things dont reach where they used too e.g. ECU could not reach to rear bulkhead. I dont think I will have an issue with the oil pickup, but have fitted a pressure guage so I can monitor it and baffle the sump if necessary such as with caterhams.

D.

Looks like your going to have fun building that but your engine looks very rusty and corroded for such a new donor?

rusty? you think so? Maybe the photos dont do it justice.
The engine is spot on from I have seen so far.

No baffle needed, the pickup is fine.

I know my ECU wiring will reach the rear bulk head, in fact I may end up shortening this part of the donor loom

The corrosion is nothing remarkable to my eyes - it's about what one would expect for a 9 year old car? The 1.8t engines I've tinkered with have generally had rusty blocks, and a reasonable amount of pitting of the aluminium.

Here's an example:

Have you taken any photos of the rear suspension arms, am interested to see how they have changed compared to mine, wondered if they had done anything about rear ride height as mine is very low we think.

D.

Not yet, they are all still wrapped safe in a box.
Will take some photos as I move along with the build.

What is your ride hide? And why can you not change it?

Hi, not been on for a while as just trying to finalise the order and locate that elusive donor car!! Unfortunately its all showing me just how wet behind the ears I am at all this, so any help greatfully recieved. Firstly, has anyone got any better places to be searching for the donor other than ebay and autotrader? I'm looking for the 180bhp 1.8L turbo SEAT leon (tho if I could find a 235bhp Cupra R version that'd be nice!!) and hoping that £2000-3000 should get me a nice engine thats not done too many miles (60-70,000 miles). Unfortunately pickings are slim at the mo so anywhere else I should be looking?

Also am slightly concerned about the 'extra's' lists for the marlin price list and whats needed and whats not. Obveously Marlin need to make a profit, but I dont really like the idea of being taken for a ride just due to lack of experience. For example is £110 on their build stand for 12 mths money well spent or just not needed? Also Terry has sent me thro a near finished new price list which lists a lot of relatively expensive brake parts that I wonder if I should be getting these else where? Any thoughts?
eg:
2 x Front brake discs - Vented VW/EXi £ 30.00 pr
2 x Rear brake discs - Solid VW/EXi £ 20.00 pr
2 x Willwood aluminium 4 pot (front) calipers £ 160.00 pr
1 x Set road/race brake pads for front calipers £ 20.00
2 x Single pot rear handbrake caliper assemblies (incs pads) £ 120.00 pr
2 x Rear wheel bearing kits £ 49.00 pr
2 x Front wheel flange / bearing assemblies £ 85.00 pr
OR
Hydraulic pedal box assembly to inc
1 x Pedal box (inc clutch pedal, brake pedal & accelerator pedal
1 x Balance bar assembly
2 x 0.75 Master cylinder
1 x 0.62 Master cylinder
1 x Cylinder clevis connector
1 x Hydraulic fluid reservoir
1 x Mtr brake fluid feed hose £ 175.00

Hi there.

I can only comment on the older chassis design so might be talking cobbles with the new designs. But the original design was use a Rover 200 with the drivetrain from say the Honda type R or Rover turbo. In your case the Seat. Have they gone away from the single donor route now?

These are all consumable and would replace anyway as a matter of course during the build.
2 x Front brake discs - Vented VW/EXi £ 30.00 pr
2 x Rear brake discs - Solid VW/EXi £ 20.00 pr
1 x Set road/race brake pads for front calipers £ 20.00
2 x Rear wheel bearing kits £ 49.00 pr
2 x Front wheel flange / bearing assemblies £ 85.00 pr

Cannot use donor calipers???
2 x Willwood aluminium 4 pot (front) calipers £ 160.00 pr
2 x Single pot rear handbrake caliper assemblies (incs pads) £ 120.00 pr

I found that having a complete Rover assembey was point less. As to get it all working, all the pedals had to be chopped from the Rover pedal box anyway. All separate pedals.
Hydraulic pedal box assembly to inc
1 x Pedal box (inc clutch pedal, brake pedal & accelerator pedal
1 x Balance bar assembly
2 x 0.75 Master cylinder
1 x 0.62 Master cylinder
1 x Cylinder clevis connector
1 x Hydraulic fluid reservoir
1 x Mtr brake fluid feed hose

As for the donor. Can you not look for the Golf/Audi A3/Skoda? Even the 150BHP ones. Then lookout for a bigger turbo for it if you want more power.

Also, what's happening about the wiring loom? Do Marlin sell them for the car?

Seems you need a bit of clarity here.

Calipers
The front calipers from the donor go onto the rear of the 5EXi, this allow for the use of the donor driveshafts etc .
You then need a new set up for the front.

2 x Willwood aluminium 4 pot (front) calipers £ 160.00 pr
2 x Front brake discs - Vented VW/EXi £ 30.00 pr
1 x Set road/race brake pads for front calipers £ 20.00

You can also use the pedal box from the Donor if you wish.
But a Marlin pedal has advantages, such as front/rear balance bar.
Hydralic clutch,
If you use a VAG donor, the throttle is electronic, so no cables or wires here, you remove the Accelerator from the Marlin pedal box and put in the electronic one from your donor.

As for a donor, you might struggle to find an Audi A3 or VW in budget.
Seats and Skodas are the same kit but your not paying for the badge. What ever you use the main problem is geometry the driveshafts mainly need to be the right length. A3 and Cupras seem to match, no gurantee available anything else will, as it is un-tried.

Hence I went for the Seat Cupra 180Bhp.
You can find a lot of 150Bhp models, and Cupra R's (in budget) are rare.
I paid £2200 for my donor, X Reg, 63K miles, MOT, but it had Some minor Body Panel Damage (Hence cheap, car without damage should of been £3500).
The problem is since the government introduced the scrap scheme, people are trading in cars, under this scheme the cars MUST be scrapped from a UK registration point of view, These cars actually end up in Poland. This is having the adverse effect for suitable donor cars for the kit car market. Hence suitable donors are more expensive than say 2yrs ago

Try looking on some salvage sites, find a CAT C or CAT D damage repairable
http://www.douglasvalley.co.uk/
http://www.asalvageyard.co.uk/
These cars may NOT be driveable, so you will need to arrange a trailer or flat bed. Personally the thought of paying a bit more and being able to drive it gives you some assurance that what you need from the donor actually works.
Ebay and Autotrader are perhaps the best places, look DAILY for new adverts in Autotrader, I got mine the same day it appeared online. Good luck


Yes Marlin will sell a you a special wire loom for the 5EXi, it currently being developed for the VAG engine series , they do not have them available off the shelf yet.