MadaboutKitcars

It don't start!

Actually it hasn't started for some time, so when it came to turning it over yesterday, it didn't.

I am reliably informed it is seized and although probably repairable, it would be cheaper to get another one.

Now I have a little dilema. Do I get amother 1600 or do I get something else?

I am guessing the Honda route would cause too many issues with a part built car (designed for the 1600), but I can see an opportunity to look at an 1800VVC.
I know the gearbox is different and therefore the mounts, but this could possibly be overcome by making a new mount bracket to fit between the engine & mount.

I know I'll need the engine and all ancilleries including ECU, 5AS and alarm blipper. Is there anything else I need to consider?

I have a hydraulic clutch system fitted that I want to keep. Does this mean I will need to look at particular cars for the donor engine?

What do people think?
Stay with the 1600 or upgrade?
Upgrade to what?

What do I need to consider?

I'd be tempted along the 1600 Honda route......given the K series H/gasket reliability 1600 Honda would be interesting?

I'm not familiar with the Rover lumps, but I thought the casings are the same for all the 'boxes used with the k-series, it's just the ratios that differ?

A honda K-series will cost you ££££ - physically fitting one in the car is easy, but the engine and parts to make it work, are excessively pricey:

Engine / box with OEM Ecu - probably around £1500 (best case - they vary a lot)
Driveshafts - £200 a side, if you get bespoke ones made, or slightly less if you cut and shut civic shafts on to rover shafts.
ECU modifcation - £700 (unless you go for marlin's £300 "box of tricks").
Fuel pressure regulator £50
Clutch kit £200
and many more odds and ends that I've forgotten....
..... have I put you off yet?

Higher output k-series has to be the way forward for simplicity / cost reasons?

Having said the above, and just to spice things up a bit: I almost put a VAG 20vt lump in my car, having played around with them quite a bit, and having good contacts for mapping / parts.... Engines have been going for buttons on ebay recently (a friend got one for £250 the other week), and for that sort of money you can't really go far wrong? If you get one with a k03s turbo, then the lag is negligible, and a very reliable 230bhp is easily obtained. They've been used to good effect in Elises!

The gearbox is different on the 1800 & 2lt cars. I have the info at home.

Engine wise, I believe the block is essentially the same for all 'K' series, the turbo being 'T' series.

As for the Honda option: Yes, you are putting me off. Not exactly the budget build I was after.

Audi power sounds great! I imagine cost could become an issue again though.

The turbo seems to sell cheaply. What would I need to consider to fit this?

[size=-2](1.8vvc still looks fav)[/size]

Hi mate.

The 1.8 VVC uses the PG1 box. So essentially, to keep hydraulic, you can pinch bits from the 600 and 800 series. But as you say, you need to do all the wiring again. Not sure if it's a straight plug and play. Then driveshafts and mount.

Depending on how far you want to go yes another engine option would be worth considering, equally as others have pointed out if you steer away from the K series, you may be looking at some serious money. I have built the 1600K and it no slouch, and I have it on mind to beef up the engine later. So to that end my thoughts are the K series would be where I would stay.

Best of luck in whatever option you take.

Steve

If I fit a different engine, will it effect the registration?

I don't want a 'Q'

Will the 1800 mate to the gearbox I have?

How easy would a 2lt Turbo fit?

If I do stick with another 1600, what ancilleries do I need & what can I keep?




Sooooo many questions

Hi mate.

If I fit a different engine, will it effect the registration?
Hopefully not if you change the donor registration on the V5 log book with the new engine number. Will know better when mine comes to get registered.

Will the 1800 mate to the gearbox I have?
No as the 1.8 is a PG1 box. Yours i think is a R65

How easy would a 2lt Turbo fit?
Problem the same work as the 1.8 VVC K. Electrics (my electrics are easier than the K as no 5AS), driveshafts (a bit of a hybrid), engine mounts, exhaust and possibly 150 MPH clocks and V rated tyres. Would be harder to prove I would have thought proving engine age as the bubble did not come with a turbo lump. Unless you could prove it was a bubble turbo conversion.

If I had the space I would happly do it for you as mine is nearly finished.

Is your windscreen on and bonded on the dash?

Don't know if this of some interest.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROVER-600-TURBO-ENGINE-NEW-BOXED-GENUINE-ROVER-PART_W0QQitemZ330134794010QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10414QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Would have had it for myself as a spare. But can't justify to the other half.

+ another couple 100 for ancilleries . . . . . much more than I want to spend.

That's kinda what I thought. Shouldn't be too much of an issue to send the doc back for change of engine details.




Does this mean they won't mate?
What are the major differences between the 'boxes?
If I get it from a scrappy, I'll probably end up with the 'box anyway. Will have to see how easy it is to keep the hydraulic clutch.



Turbo looks like it will be cheaper, but changing the clocks could be an issue! (unless I can get 150mph clocks from a R400/45)




Ta - we are 300+ miles apart though.




No, trial fitted, but left until wiring checked (hence engine start).


I really like the idea of upgrading, but as I am really trying to build it on a low budget, I can see another 1.6 getting fitted.

All budget ideas welcome . . .

Perfect replacement, no wires needed, and a good couple of horse power.

Two old nags, i've got plenty around my way like my next door nieghbours for example.

Just an idea

Well I take back what I said previously....

They're getting cheaper it seems, though perhaps the location had some part in it:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HONDA-CIVIC-TYPE-R-Engine-Gearbox_W0QQitemZ130123270188QQihZ003QQcategoryZ72205QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What's a perfect replacement?

1800 will mate to the R65 no probs.
Fancy a forged 1800 bottom end? I have a short block with forged pistons, balanced crank and rods kicking around...
Can mate your head to it - just have your head gas flowed...
Email me if you want on [email]grant@gb-ent.com[/email]

Ah me bad. I thought all 1.8's was pg1.

In your defence, Grant didn't say all 1.8 k-series engines were fitted with a R65, just that they are compatible.

Assuming a 1.8 comes as standard with a PG1, presumably one would need to change the flywheel and clutch on a 1.8 vvc to mate it to a R65 'box?

Having said the above, the Which Kit build used a 1.8 vvc, and there's no mention of different engine mounts being needed, that I can remember.

What's the rule of thumb torque limitations of the gearboxes?

1.8 & 2lt have PG1 gearbox where as 1.6 & below have R65.

Grant, your offer sounds interesting. I am doing a little research on it. I will probably be back to you.

Engine mounts on the body will be the same whether 1.6 or 1.8, but the mounts on the box itself would be different IF you switched to a PG1.
As per the otehr comment - you would also need to use your 1.6 flywheel and clutch if using the R65... Which does spring up another possible issue if you ran the 1.8VVC ECU (which I'm presuming you wouldn't?)

Anyhow - I'd recommend for ease:
1.8K
R65 box
1.6 clutch and flywheel
1.6 head (ported and flowed - even better with big valves!)

Did not realise that was all that was different from the PG1 and R65.

Is the Rover ECU easily remapped? How would one take adavantage of the 1.8 mated to the 1.6 ported head?

To get back on topic, if doing all this work, then one might as well be repairing the currently defunct 1.6...... and it's cheaper to buy another engine, and drop that in... and a 1.8vvc with pg1 would be easy enough to drop in.....?

I disagree
He alredy has all the 1.6 parts, so putting a 1.8 in from the point of view of a bottom end is a good thing. No need to buy new ECU, box. clutch etc.
ECU will deal with it easily. It runs on a mass air flow structure, so will see the pressure and temperature and deal with air flow accordingly.
MEMS is nigh on impossible to remap.

If I do go ahead with this, it will not be me building the engine.

It will be a reputable builder

If you've a good block, and a good head, mating the two together is easy.

As for the ECU side of things, I don't see how a 1.8 will work properly with the 1.6 ECU, maf or not. Surely the calculated load will be incorect (as the engine will be breathing more deeply for a given throttle opening), and correspondingly the ignition timing will be wrong?

Rover mapped the ECU's very very very conservatively.
so much so that you can *just* get away with a 1.4ECU on a 1.8!!!

It will KNOW how much airflow there is as a result of air pressure and temperature. ECU doesn't care how big the stroke is.

It doesn't have a MAF by the way - it has a MAP sensor and air temp sensor.
It's a simple calbulation that to make an air-fuel mixture (ratio) you need x parts of fuel to y parts of air, so if it knows what air you have, it can put in the right fuel (whatever engine size).
The only issue is ifyou go outside the ECU's parameters (nearly impossible up to 170-175hp)