MadaboutKitcars

Compare cost's of a kit car to your mainstream, they are peanuts. They can afford a price hike.

There are different points of view as to cost vs qaulity.

From what I understand, the best selling 7 is the most expensive.

Cheap does not always sell. How does a 3 series bm out sell a mondeo in a year?

Development does not need to be that expensive. Kits are relatively simple manufacturing processes.

Yep. I agree with you on this, it's a very difficult equation to solve......but creative thinking and ideas can help, and using existing chassis and cloth them with a different shape, is cheaper than design a new model all together.

Maybe you need to show your readers a few design ideas, and challenge the industry with something new, just by using an existing chassis manufactured by any kit manufacture.

The TONIQ-R project shows what you can do with your locost chassis...., but any chassis could do.

Why don't you run a design contest.
"Design a new and simple kit " using a cheap simple donor, a locost chassis, or any chassis.
Or rebody an existing car....

You set the rules, you could even run it in your next issue...

Den.......help me out here......I cant find the words....

Could end up with hundreds of drawings of concept cars which would never reach production of any form.

How about some builders devepment pages??

You could invite actual conversions that have been done and rate them on their merits. All builders are responsible for development as we develop small changes from the manufacture's spec, could be use change of clips upto chassis changes.

Take any chassis and put 10 complete cars together, none are the same, and there sure will be some improved build on some models, which the manufacturers have never seen.

One of the largest part of development is feedback from manufacture's services, weakest areas etch. the manufacturers use this to target areas for improvement to the product.

Kit manufacture's miss out on a lot of this valuable feedback. As they have no hand in the build or servicing

Hi Mark,
I know that we’re singing off the same hymn sheet, but was concerned that certain onlookers wouldn’t understand what you meant by “Sorry Den, but b*tchin' ain't marketing”.

I know that what was said was difficult to comprehend, but it’s done now and it’s been effective. There can’t be many who are unaware of the fact that certain titles can’t be read at face value on certain topics and, I think, people are now equally aware that one magazine leads the field by a country mile.

That’s one of the reasons why the new Kit Car Guide is such a success. It’s being supported by manufacturers who only a year ago would not have wanted to be in it. Of the 100 models featured so far, only 3 haven’t contributed toward its cost (one of those was Bugrat).

My point is that even if I’ve been “ b*tchin'” it HAS served as marketing. To be taken seriously in this industry, I had to undo the cumulative effect of a decade of lies about me. Those lies were debilitating both from a personal perspective and had financial ramifications.

Setting the record straight is not all that I’ve done. I simultaneously made the magazine bigger, improved the technical journalism by recruiting Nigel and put considerable effort into ‘marketing’ to those who stock magazines.

Strides have been made too in the areas you’ve just mentioned. The covers have been better, as has been the photography and layouts. I honestly believe that newcomers will get a better impression of the industry than previously.

What I’m saying, Mark, is that I’m doing my very best to improve the industry’s image. The messy situation of putting Fib’s in his place was a necessary part of the overall package, because not only do the mags have to look good, but they have to be trustworthy too – otherwise they’re about as useful as a chocolate teapot.


Twice this year we’ve bagged the mag in order to enclose free catalogues. If this troubles you: you only need open the bag in the shop – many do! On both occasions our sales increased!


There are indeed, and I’ll look particularly favourably at any kit which offers a reasonable product for a reasonable price. However, and I’ve said this before, honest magazines report what they find: rather than find what they report.

In compiling the new guide; I see various new development trends. It’s only a matter of time before one or more of them become ‘trendy’ as was the case with beach buggies in the 1970’s, the Duttons of the !980’s and many replicas of the 1990’s. As then, early examples were less attractive than later, more refined, models.


Hi Fuoriserie,
Please don’t burden poor ole Kartman with publishing responsibilities. So far as I’m aware he isn’t a publisher (yet)…. although there might be a rag for sale soon!!!!

Den

Late night and tired......
I'm very sorry kartman...., This was intended for Kitcarman, and Den thanks for pointing out my big mistake.

But what do you think of the Design contest idea?...

Just a thought, but would this attract a wider market to the industry?

If a certain magazine had a stand at a show like Max Power (it could be any similar show) and shared the cost with 1-2 manufacturers that would be interested in selling to such a market.

You could show 2-3 cars that would wipe the floor (in terms of performance) compared to 95% of the other cars at the show.

I can see the issue being that these people don't want to 'build' their own car, but with the amount they are willing to spend on a Corsa (eg) they could afford to buy a turnkey vehicle.

To attract the audience further as an insurance company to give you some example quotes that could be displayed on posters (at the insurance Co expense).

Acting as a group it would also be possible to have a loan company come on board for individuals looking to buy turnkey cars then you would have no problems with payment etc.

Just a thought, any comments?

Now there is an idea........I have had a try at manufacturing, maybe I should have a go at publishing.....??????

If you want a broad customer base, you need to offer a broad product. From a basic cheap as chips Kit upto the maxpower race spec Kit with a very high price tag.

I look at some reports in comparison to cars (looks, style & performance etch) and it leads me to believe they are nothing more than paid advertising.

Please note; i refer to mags in general and none in particular!

Good Option.

The most effective way a car can get advertised is via their performance standards.

For very little cost, Santa Pod offers a huge market, where a Kit can prove it's performance and the manufacturers can have a real good time in doing so.

My thoughts exactly, I think i mentioned that I took my Ultima to a few max power events at the Pod etc and it even got pictures published... and posted Unrivaled times in class although that wasn't published.

Many of the cars at these events cost more than our kits and it's defiantelly a potential market.... especially when you mention to them that the car may actually be worth what they spend and that it'll be a fraction to insure etc.

I realise that performance is one area in which certain kit cars prevail, but the vast majority of kit cars are not primarily aimed at the performance market (even if they have the appearance of a performance vehicle).

For example, there are at least 20 kits based on a WV floorpan (mostly 356 replicas and beach buggies). There are several body conversions which in many cases end up heavier than their base vehicle. Some of those are clearly made for off-road activities. Speaking of which there are a plethora of off-road buggies and cars (Bugrat, MEV, Outbak to name a few). Then there are still a few traditional roadsters available (Beauford, Marlin Sportster, Javelin Cabrio and Regal to name some). What about three wheelers and replicas of classics (the replica aspect being, I guess, their predominant appeal). Then there are a few plan-built offerings (where, I guess, the task of building is more the attraction than the joy of driving). Let’s not forget that there are a whole group of 2CV, Herald and Spitfire based kits (for which, presumably, the owners must place performance pretty low down on their list of priorities). Even in respect to the real ‘performers’ of the industry, it’s a low proportion that end up assembled with the most powerful motor in the range.

My point is that the attraction of kit cars must go way beyond this one aspect – evidenced by what’s actually available. A group of kit cars attending a sports or racing car show is not, in my humble view, going to make any significant difference to the fortunes of this industry as a whole.

I’m not trying to P155 on anyone’s fireworks, but merely trying to get us to focus on the wider problem of getting the word about the whole range of kit car types onto the streets.

Den

Den

Anything that shows the industry in good light is a step in trhe right direction.

Even selling to the Max Power brigade, it doesn't mean they'll all buy the most powerful.

but even if your into kit cars if you lust after a dax rush or an Ultima then you are also unlikelly to be interested in beetle based kits etc....
I'd say the modded scene is larger than the kit scene so I recon its a huge potential market and loads of kits would fall into the right hole for these guys.

Also a large part of the modded scene is all about looks and not performance (due to insurance) and often the cars are also much heavier than std.

That is why a few of us thought about rebodies, using an Mazda mx5 or a Toyota mr2 car, and rebody it with a new shape.
This was considered one of the easiest and fastest option to tap into the MAX Power crowd, because you would have very little building, compared to a real kitcar.

Unfortunately the feedback from the die-hard kitcar enthusiast, or people in the business was lukewarm, or plain cold.
I think kitcar manufacturers perceive rebodies as low rent........

I think that the industry is too conservative and maybe a new generation of younger kitcar manufacturers are needed to change things....till then moderate change but nothing more.

This will remain a very little niche for the years to come.....

Moving away from the magazine and publicity discussions for a moment I think the industry as a whole needs to recognise what someone else alluded to a few pages ago - it's a generation thing and tinkering with dirty cars. I'm 32 and have never really had to work on a car. I've had a few cars since I was 18 and have never really got further in than replacing brake discs/pads, alternators, bonnet, etc etc.

There are too many people like me who don't really know anything about cars. I bought a Marlin Sportster and 2 reasons were;
1; Marlin gave me the impression it was a fairly straightforward build
2; to learn more about cars engines etc.

I've now "given up" and am paying Vindicator to finish it for me, not cheap but I still want the car to drive!

I think the industry needs to
be more honest to potential buyers as to exactly what is involved;
create FAR better build manuals;
have far better support services - -i.e. you can ring up and ask stupid questions because you simply don't know without being made to feel a fool.

This isn't a dig at Marlin as they have been very helpful but I can get info targetted more at my level of competence and understanding from forums.

I just think that with modern more reliable cars (I drive a 5 year old 90,000 mile mondeo thats never needed more than a service) manufacturers might need to offer "simpler" solutions

Anyone agree or disagree?
Andy

I agree with you on your point, people tend to tinker with their daily driver less than days gone by.

Also more often new builders are fed exagerations on how much skill, time and money it takes to build by the kit builders and also how well developed the kit is.

One major benefit to the industry recently IMO is the forums and private build sites, these can be invaluable to any builder and should be encouraged by manufacturers, However I do know some ask their builders not to do a site so they don't look bad which is a worry.


(I am deliberatelly not refering at all to my last kit)

Definately agree.

Even with the likes of Caterham, who supply every nut & bolt, it is not exactly like building an airfix kit.

I see a market where manufacturers could supply part built or near finished cars, where the owner can then individualise their kit with seats, wheels, etc.

Hi AndyDane
I’m not sure this is moving away from the subject of magazines.

Part of what you are saying is that you weren’t properly informed about the true difficulties of building a kit car. The supplier was hardly likely to tell you the true extent of the problems – was he?

The magazines haven’t told you either: but is that really surprising? We’re in an industry in which two out of three of the magazines are published by people who’ve never built a kit car, have no plans to build one, no inclination to build one and no ability to build one. So, how would they know what’s expected of a builder? How could journalists of that kind offer any kind of practical advice? When they do, what basis is there for trusting their opinions?

When they recommend this kit over that one, or vote a particular vehicle “kit car of the year” – what are they actually conveying?


We all know that one such publisher, for his own personal gain, has unfairly and unjustly attacked certain products for dubious ‘technical’ reasons and, possibly worse, praised and recommended other products as fitting and performing ‘perfectly’. This before even seeing a single finished example; let alone witnessing its ease/difficulty of build. That’s hardly an honest approach – hey?

I wonder if the manufacturer of the kit that’s been recipient of the praise sees the need for a decent set of instructions, or a helpful telephone manner?

Ridding this industry of this kind of, incompetent at best and corrupt at worst, journalism would be a significant step in the right direction in my opinion. I reckon that a level playing field, reported upon by people who actually know what they’re talking about, and without having their hands in the till, would help restore confidence in this industry.

One magazine is trying to achieve just that. The other two resist: one by saying that all that’s been said is lies; the other by saying we’re “Fiercely Independent” – whatever that means.

So, I agree your diagnosis but believe that a fair, honest and competent press is the mechanism to ensure the industry’s progression. Fair, honest criticism would bring about better kits, manuals and services.

Den

This is getting very political, IHMO the magazines are not the cause or cure.

These forems to an extent are routing out much of the problems as potential owners can contact existing owners and get the facts they want, I know of quite a few people that have avoided mistakes this way.

The current problem is that there doesn't seem to be one single high volume Kit car forum, this is bound to change in the next 5 years maybe a few colaborations or joint ventures (with the mags) is the way forward.

Lol very loudly