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Been looking for a while for the deon's front track size as I'd dismantled my front suspension.As no one seems able to help I've bolted it all back on as per deon's initial set up info.
I've used a laser to set up some datum/centre lines and using the laser and an engineers square I've managed to get an accurate front track measurement from the brake disc/wheel mount face. This is 1460mm. I know the front track on a 246 gt is 1425mm so the deon is on a wider track.
So does anyone know if the deon/jhclassic dino body is wider than the actual dino body? Or does the dino used a different wheel offset? I know the deon/jhclassic uses 0mm wheel offset.
Sorry a bit confused! I should have put the deon uses an 8mm offset. Now I'm not sure if this is a plus+ or minus- offset. I'm guessing it's a minus offset as this would bring the overall track width down by 16mm.So if the same size rims were used an overall track would be 19mm wider at the tyre.
I also know from deon's I've seen that the front wheels always looked like they were a little to wide for the car-sticking out from the front arches slightly.
The cromodora wheels are 0mm offset.
Hey Ian,
how does 1460 come about? Is it not a Lancia Beta engine, gearbox with Beta driveshafts and hubs? The Beta at1410 is narrower than 1460 by 50mm (2 inches). No matter what Deon do with the wishbones they'd be stuck with the same measurement hub to hub as the Beta wouldn't they? Unless I'm missing something.
My car is the later deon with the ford 2.9 v6 which I've uprated to the 24v cosworth engine. It uses all new design upper and lower wishbones at the back with custom made drive shafts but to the standard lancia upright and lancia hubs at the rear. I've not actually measured the rear yet.
The size I've come up with is for the front. I've measured from disc face to disc face and this is the said size of 1460. The track is wheel centre to wheel centre and I'm assuming deon used a minus -8mm wheel offset so this gives an overall track of 1444. The 246 was 1425 so the deon was 19 mm oversize!
As I will be using cromadora wheels with a 0 offset I need to reduce the track by 35mm. This could be easily achieved on the deon by screwing in the bush holders as there is 22mm at the bottom and 19mm at the top. To keep bump steer to 0 the steering arm adaptors could also be wound by the same amount.
But I think I'll reduce the chassis here in width by probably 30mm and keep the deon set up as is.
I've checked the measurement at the back of the deon and have 1480mm disc face to disc face. Giving a rear track assuming the deon wheel offset is -8 per side of 1464mm. Again wider than the 246 by 34mm and again this is possible to reduce on the bottom pair of wishbones but later spec deon's had fixed upper wishbones so narrowing of the chassis is needed.
That is very interesting Ian! Perhaps the later Deon chassis that you have is wider to cope with the Ford engine? I guess that narrowing the track but keeping the same driveshafts would need checking to see that the shafts still had enough travel, lengthwise, so they don't bind. Given that the Deon body shell was originally moulded from a 206 Dino the 206 tracks are what you want to replicate? To my eyes the way the wheel/tyre combo fills the arch on the 246 looks better on the 246 than the 206.
The Ferrari Dino 206 was:
track front: 1425mm. (246GT is 1425)
track rear: 1400mm. (246GT is 1430)
here are a few images - the 206 was originally specced with narrower 185 tyres as well as having a narrower track in the rear:
What is the spec of original [B][B]Cromodora CD1[/B][/B] Ferrari Dino wheels? I have a set and measured them years ago but can't remember. This from the Ferrarichat website suggests their offset is 4 inches (approx 100mm)! But this is nuts and based on physical measurements John Corbani took 12 years ago. He is referring to the distance fro the edge of the wheel to the mounting face of the wheel but isn't offset the distance from the centreline of the wheel to the mounting face?: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/dino-16-wheels-offsets.69024/
a quick look at the diagrams in the Ferrari 246 workshop manual and a CD1 blueprint in an Italian magazine article suggests that the offset isn't zero and is more like minus 14mm to minus 11 (or the 3/4" Corbani suggested) :
I know Dehavilland suggested they would sell zero offset "CD1" replicas in 15x7" but the photo they show of a wheel on their Facebook page doesn't look that much like a CD1!
I was told the cromadora wheels as fitted to the dino were a 0mm offset and I have based everything around this. Now I know the deon used an 8mm offset and I assume this was to bring the wheels slightly inwards so I'm assuming this would be minus - offset? I guess some net searching would either correct me or put me straight!
Now I have a set of reproduction cromadora's in the attic so will measure these later today. (guess should have measured earlier!!).
The first dino 206 bodyshell was built to fit on a lotus europa chassis I beleive-thread elsewhere on here-and may have been stretched to fit. Jhclassic' Jon Hurst then saw an opportunity in the market the came up with a chassis to fit the body shell.This is where I think the track has grown. Fitting the chassis to the body and not the other way round.
I've measured my cromadora wheels and they have a 5mm off set.See photos.
The mounting face of the wheel is 5mm off the centre of the wheel towards the outer face meaning the wheel track becomes smaller.
I now know this is a plus + offset as it states it on the wheel box-doh!!
I've measured my cromadora wheels and they have a 5mm off set.See photos.
The mounting face of the wheel is 5mm off the centre of the wheel towards the outer face meaning the wheel track becomes smaller.
I now know this is a plus + offset as it states it on the wheel box-doh!!
ian
If you take a look at the first photo you will see from the mounting face to the outside face of the wheel the measurement is 107mm. The wheel overall is 204mm. So centre of wheel is half this size 102mm minus the 107mm gives us a size of plus 5mm.
The wheels look fantastic Ian! Where'd you get them and did you have the PCD & bore custom drilled for your hubs? Dinos were originally 5x108 PCD too but the centre bore was about 58-59mm if I recall correctly. Are your hubs Ford?
cheers
Ross (in NZ)
The wheels came from superformance around 3/4 years ago and at that time were £545 a set plus vat. They have gone up recently as new owners have taken over and I think they are nearer £800 plus vat now. PLus vat at that time had been reduced temporarily to 15%. It's 20% here now.
The bore is the standard bore they came with and I need to machine new spacers up to fit the wheels to the new hubs. At the moment the spacers are for the lancia beta/fiat 124 hubs.
couple more photo's for you.
first is the re machined hubs and brembo dis'c
second is the newly made brake carrier
third fitted to hub with wilwood caliper
fourth is when I trail fitted the cromadora.
What is the spec of original [B][B]Cromodora CD1[/B][/B] Ferrari Dino wheels? I have a set and measured them years ago but can't remember. This from the Ferrarichat website suggests their offset is 4 inches (approx 100mm)! But this is nuts and based on physical measurements John Corbani took 12 years ago. He is referring to the distance fro the edge of the wheel to the mounting face of the wheel but isn't offset the distance from the centreline of the wheel to the mounting face?
The 4” is backspace - hub mounting face to rim. Offset as you say is hub mounting face to wheel centreline.
Well, my curiosity is piqued now so I measured one of my original Dino wheels - as fitted new on a 1971 Dino 246:
it is 193mm wide ( centre line therefore @ 96.5mm)
mounting face of the wheel is 114mm deep
offset is therefore 17.5mm
(as measured with my daughter's plastic ruler, LOL)
I should add that the distance from the mark on the ruler ( 196mm ) to the base of the ruler sitting on the wheel mounting face is 114mm
cheers
Ross
I had some steel spacers cnc machined up to press fit on to the fiat 124 hubs from the back. The back face was machined parallel to the front face. The outside diameter was untouched and used for accuracy.
With the spacers pressed on to the fiat hubs new 5x108 holes were bored and new studs pressed in from the back. The steel spacers were also machined on there outside diameter for the new brembo disc's. The spacers sit approximately 0.25mm down from the hub face again using this original face for accuracy when bolting the wheels up.The action of the wheels being bolted on eliminates any chance of anything coming loose!!
To mount the brakes I first tried to use the original fiat caliper mount and machined an aluminium adaptor to mount my wilwood calipers onto but it was to baulky and also clashed with the steering arm on full lock.So I designed my own based around the fiat ones had them laser cut and I welded them up.
The original fiat hubs had a taper on the wheel mount boss so this was squared up so I could turn up my spacers.
The rears were done in a similar way but are bolted from the front as there was not enough room to fit them from the back.
Again cnc machined up but this time the were surface ground from the machine face for accuracy. As I couldn't press these on I've used the hub nut to hold them on and again used the wheel bolts. The brakes have been mounted using an adaptor mounted to the original brake mounts.
I'm not happy with the handbrake assembly so I'm looking at removing this and using a pair of brembo units.
the rear brakes were a pain as I've tried to incorporate the hand brake.
I've made new mounts and I've had to reshape the strut brackets and also weld the bolt in to become a captive thread to prevent it clashing with the cable mount,but I've managed to get it all in.
Will look at brembo handbrake calipers though.
Forgot to add-my wheels are larger than the standard 14 inch on the 246 dino
at 16 inch as I wanted a larger choice of tyre. And these wheels are usually supplied by superformance to be used in conjunction with the 246 big brake upgrade kit. This may be the reason behind the different offset.
Spares - always useful. I was about to pick up a couple of MX5 spindles & hubs to see if the Alfa 166 rear hub could be adapted to them - since it is perfect for my cromodora cd1s.
I think I read somewhere where someone used a pair of toyota mr2 rear handbrake calipers and swapped the hub and bearings for alfa hubs when they fitted an alfa v6 engine and box to a deon-but can't remember where!
Hi Ian, going back to the comments about using a rear macpherson strut-type suspension (or a front macpherson - used in the rear of your chassis). I just watched a couple of videos that helped me understand some stuff: Agent 47 racing's video explains that lack of camber control is one area where macpherson is not as good as double wishbone. The strut acts essentially as a sliding joint and the camber doesn't change much. The big angle on front macpherson struts is to do with scrub radius - and this is not an issue on the rear.
/Drive have a series of videos explaining geometry. In episode 1 he notes that lopping 2.5" off a strut has a big effect on geometry and will be "pretty messed up".
Camber control for grip, stability and braking is one thing but the other, as Ozijim points out in his post, is keeping the roll centre under control - if it changes drastically the car could get suddenly out of balance.
cheers
Ross
