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Any further info on your new model yet?
Regards
Andy
Hi everyone,
Just a quick update on the progress of the new Dino replica project (the D2).
We've just released our first complete bodyshell from the moulds. I'll be posting a few pics early next year once its been trimmed up and treated to a splash of paint.
A couple of you asked about my plans and prices for the turn key cars & kits. For the first year I'll still be sticking to turn key cars only, so that any problems can be ironed out by us on the early cars and they will be offered at around £40k. Once those early cars are complete and we've build up the experince we need to be able to look after customers who want to buld their own cars the kits will be rolled out.
A full delux kit with all the holes drilled and the bodyshell trimmed and deburred, basically with the parts ready to be bolted together is going to be around £22K . It will including everything except an audi A4 donor car, paint & those Ferrari bits you can buy from Superformance.
Thanks for the question Chris. I've had a few similar private messages over the last couple of weeks, I think the warmer weather's got everyone thinking about the summer. I'll try to cover everything here.
Hopefully this will answer everyone's questions but please keep the questions coming if there's anything I haven't covered, its great from my point of view to know that there's plenty of interest.
Firstly where and when can people see our car? I decided in January to hold the launch off until I can offer both the GT and the GTS. This means completing tooling for both cars and as such requires more time but the first GTS shell has already been taken from our moulds and is currently being refined after which the moulds will be finalised. I'm still looking at first viewings being this summer. I'll let everyone know as soon as they're ready and I'll put some pictures on this site.
I will be offering a 2 year guarantee (UK mainland) on all turn-key cars and for the first year of production only turn-key cars will be offered.
I'll try my best to cover all the issues found on many Deons that have been resolved for the D2.
The distance from the rear wheel to rear edge of the doors has been increased by 75mm.
The fuel capacity and range has approximately doubled.
The height of the bonnet has raised 65mm.
Below the number plate there is a wide vent with a round vent to either side.
The lengths of the front wings and width of the wheel arches have been equalized.
The width of the front of the car has been increased by 65mm, correcting the gape between the front and rear edges of the front wheel arches when viewed from the front.
The height of the rear of the car has raised 40mm at the edge of the boot lid.
The panel gaps are nominally 3mm and the doors close flush with the body.
The bonnet is symmetrical and hinged from the front edge.
The boot and engine bay have separate covers mounted on stainless steel multi pivot hinges
The GTS has a locating peninsular at the rear of the back of the roof
The rear window of the GTS is recessed making the strip of roof at the rear wider.
The headlamps are recessed.
The interior central tunnel is half round in profile with a trapezoidal console.
The engine cover has 7 vents per side.
The bonnet badge recess is centred
The position of the front indicators has been corrected
The bumpers use the original rubber inserts
The wheel hubs are the correct stud pattern for Chromadora or Campagnola wheels and are designed to correctly place the bearings for the low offset of these wheels.
The turning circle is similar to most family cars.
The width of the foot well has been increased such that most people will be able to drive the cars easily.
The hand-brake is at a readily accessible height.
The driver's and passenger's seats face dead ahead with the peddles directly in front of the driver.
Space is available at the side of the clutch peddle to rest your foot off the clutch.
The brakes are servo assisted.
There are probably a few more things that belong on that list but hopefully I've covered all the main ones. Notably our cars are a tribute to the later model 246 sold in the UK up to the end of the Dino's life in 1974. These cars being the 3rd major revision of the Dino. The first being the short wheelbase 206 and the second being the original 246 with a tapered bonnet, front bumpers hooked into the front air intake, manual windows and clap-hand wipers (we offer the wipers as an option). There are a few things we offer that aren't as per the original such as climate control, ABS and power adjustable peddles but all the important stuff is as it should be.
If anybody has a Deon or any similar replica and needs work doing to improve its current condition please feel free to approach us.
hi crocus,what hubs did you go for,for your replica.I have a deon and have been looking at altering/ welding -allsorts really to adapt to take the superformanse repo alloys.I have the 124/lada fronts and lancia beta rears.
cheers ian
We buy Audi Hubs, which we re-machine to a 5x108 stud patern. There are plenty of hubs that use this patern which you could look at such as Volvo, ford and I believe Alfa but there are other problems too.
All Dino wheels are as close as makes no difference to zero offset. This means they sit further out from the hubs and bearings. This creates problems if the running gear hasn't been designed specifically for them. The wheel will sit further out of the arch than intended and the clearance required within the arch will change too. The leverage advantage that the wheels gain means the steering will become more twitchy and the wheel bearing will be placed under extra load. The reason we re-machine Audi hubs is because the bearings that go with them can cope with the extra load but we only use them with specially designed uprights.
If you really aren't put off by any of the above then the best way to achieve what you're wanting to do is to have your hubs re-machined. Unless you intend changing other parts of your running gear at the same time.
If your finding it difficult to locate someone to do this for you I can certainly offer that service.
hi.
you say you re-machine the hubs to fit your specially made uprights.you must have upgraded from the 124/lada front and beta rears?
I thought the offset on the deon was around +8mm-so as you say the repro wheels would require 8mm shim. I found a company that can make split adaptors to fit the lada/lancia hubs to go from 4 to a five stub but the thinnessed they can do is 28mm.I suppose I could always wind in the rose joints 20 ish mm inward as they have something like 32mm thread showing?
ian
I can't comment on the offset of the wheels that are currently fitted to your replica but I'm certain that what I have told you concerning offset applied to both the Lada and Lancia running gear your Deon uses.
If we assume your current +8mm offset is correct, the repro wheels will add 8mm (positive offset indicates the bolting plane is closer to the outermost face of the wheel) and the spacers you've found, add a further 28mm to the width of track at either side. Its certainly going to introduce the factors I mentioned previously. Unfortunately whilst winding the wheels in by using the adjustment offered by the suspension will improve the appearance of the modification, it may create other problems.
You'll be introducing your steering and suspension geometry to a 72mm adjustment across the track. The car's cornering ability may be effected and/or you may start to experience bumpsteer.
You may find no problems and be very happy with the results but I'd urge caution.
hi tom
lots to think about!!.I have a set of five dino wheels that were hand cast and heat treated that I copied from an origanal ( patternmaker by trade) and they are part machined to fit the lada/124 beta hubs with the correct offset.But I was quoted silly money to have these finish machined (around £100 each) to size but the more I look at it the better option they look. New repo wheels £800 +vat,spacers £400 +vat.
cheers ian
Back in 1985 I decided that I would replace the body of my 1972 Lotus Europa with a Dino Ferrari shell.
I loaned a Ferrari 206GT to a company called “Automotive Design & Development” in Southend, Essex for the moulds to be made and a bodyshell to be supplied and bonded to my Lotus floorpan.
I was not interested in producing further bodyshells or a kit car so the fibreglass company kept the moulds for their own use.
They began marketing a Dino replica called the “Daytona Classics 204GT” – unfortunately using stock Dino photographs for their ads and producing a poor quality kit.
A purchaser of one of the kits (John Hurst) rang me and asked if he could take a mould off one of the poor kits that he had purchased and go in to production himself - I said OK as long as they were of good standards and not VW based etc. This car from “J. H. Classics” was first the DGT and then became the Deon.
John Hurst was very keen on the cars and his kits were extremely well finished but, as with many small businesses in such a niche market, it disappeared and resurfaced a couple of times under different names. The last known manufacturer was a company in Ilton, Somerset (who actually replaced my original doors and hinge system with their units) but they too have since disappeared.
The moulds are still around and I am led to believe may soon be back in use in a new kit.
My car: The Europa was ideally suited to the 246GT so at first the rear wheel arches were incorrectly positioned (as the 206GT is appx 4” shorter on the wheelbase) but the manufacturers of the Marcos in Westbury made an excellent job of repositioning the arches so that the car now looks as it should.
Pictures of my Lotus are here: http://www.david.mirylees.btinternet.co.uk/the_dino.htm
An article on the car is here: http://www.david.mirylees.btinternet.co.uk/the_articles.htm
Back in 1985 I decided that I would replace the body of my 1972 Lotus Europa with a Dino Ferrari shell.
I loaned a Ferrari 206GT to a company called “Automotive Design & Development” in Southend, Essex for the moulds to be made and a bodyshell to be supplied and bonded to my Lotus floorpan.
I was not interested in producing further bodyshells or a kit car so the fibreglass company kept the moulds for their own use.
They began marketing a Dino replica called the “Daytona Classics 204GT” – unfortunately using stock Dino photographs for their ads and producing a poor quality kit.
A purchaser of one of the kits (John Hurst) rang me and asked if he could take a mould off one of the poor kits that he had purchased and go in to production himself - I said OK as long as they were of good standards and not VW based etc. This car from “J. H. Classics” was first the DGT and then became the Deon.
John Hurst was very keen on the cars and his kits were extremely well finished but, as with many small businesses in such a niche market, it disappeared and resurfaced a couple of times under different names. The last known manufacturer was a company in Ilton, Somerset (who actually replaced my original doors and hinge system with their units) but they too have since disappeared.
The moulds are still around and I am led to believe may soon be back in use in a new kit.
My car: The Europa was ideally suited to the 246GT so at first the rear wheel arches were incorrectly positioned (as the 206GT is appx 4” shorter on the wheelbase) but the manufacturers of the Marcos in Westbury made an excellent job of repositioning the arches so that the car now looks as it should.
Pictures of my Lotus are here: http://www.david.mirylees.btinternet.co.uk/the_dino.htm
An article on the car is here: http://www.david.mirylees.btinternet.co.uk/the_articles.htm
Hi david
I had heard mumbberlings about your car but up untill now always thought they were just that.Nice to see the pictures.Your car looks very similar to the ones jhc used in his early adverts. ian
Like Ian I'd also heard that the DGT had been based on moulds taken from a 206GT but had always considered this to be speculation until now.
I'd assumed this due to numerous irregularities. These irregulatities may of been present in the original 206GT or it may be that “Automotive Design & Development” altered the moulds that they'd taken, resulting in these irregularities when they created their kitcar.
For example, if you compare the front wheel arches, the right hand side (UK drivers side) wheel arch is narrower relative to the width of the car and shorter relative to the length of the car and is set at a different angle. The tear-drop recess for the headlamp is also differently shaped on one side and the front indicator is closer to one recess than the other. Does your car have any of these problem or the many others highlighted earler.
If you can cast any light on the situation you may be able to add the final piece to this jigsaw?
My car appears to be reasonably symmetrical but I have never measured to be certain.
I was actually at Automotive when they did the lay-up of my car and, with the 206GT next to it, it appeared identical. Nothing has ever stood out as being "wrong".
Here you must remember of course that all of the 206GT's were hand formed in Aluminium and therefore there would always be some discrepancies. (I have heard of there being doors on the same car being a couple of inches difference in length!). Reference the doors, I originally made the doors to fit the apertures and at no time checked to see if one side differed from the other. As it was, my attempt at the doors (which were pretty well identical to the original as the car was sitting next to me) looked fine but the hinge mechanism was poor. So after a few years or so I had the DGT items fitted. There appears to be some extra work on the doors so it could well be that they had to "adjust" their doors to fit my apertures. Also remember that all of the 206's were LH drive.
I can't imagine that Automotive would have spent any time on making things symmetrical if they weren't - they were not that type of company!
One thing that was left when the moulds were taken was a slight dent in the rear below the number plate - it was on the 206 and is still on mine!
I might be able to help you guy's out here. I've been in touch with John of JH Classics about a week ago. This is from one of his messages.
"The car was moulded from an original 206GT, three bodies were made from the mould, which was then destroyed, one was converted into a Lotus Europa powered Dino, the second was my prototype and the third was made into the master plug for our moulds, through the process of research and development and for copyright reasons we made some changes to the car, the original was rebuilt, the Lotus one is still with its original owner, the first prototype was written off in an accident and the third master was burnt once we had finished producing all the moulds. I am very glad you like the car, I retain two of them, one Le Mans, the only one in existence and one V6 Mirabeau. It is nice to think they may go back into production."
Now that makes sense of things. A company wouldn't normally make production quality moulds if they were just going to make a couple of shells. You'd make a temporary mould. After a couple of shell's or 3 in this case this thin mould wouldn't be in good shape, so it would be scrapped; as it was.
From the information people have provided it sounds like, "Automotive Design & Development" or John Hurst or possibly one commissioned by the other used one of the shells to make a master to create new moulds but they cut and carved it to make it easier to produce and less like the real thing, for fear of legal problems and the familiar symmetry problems probably beset as a result.
As Ferrotus said
"I can't imagine that Automotive would have spent any time on making things symmetrical if they weren't - they were not that type of company!"
Whatever roll John Hurst played in the formation of the production moulds he certainly helped the cars shake off some of the early quality problems and we probably wouldn't know much about them if he hadn't got involved.
At the end of the day they're still loved by their owners and they make a lot of people happy. I've owned and loved a JH Classic DGT, its responsible for what I now do for a living. If anyone thinks any of that sounds wide of the mark please say so.
hi
re your mirabeau-I believe this car was built by david javan way back around 1996/8 ish.Seems to have change colour as it was originally a dark maroon but there is no mistaking the cossie lump with the alley breather in the boot! this is the car that lead me to fit the same engine in mine.still looks good!
ian
Like Ian I'd also heard that the DGT had been based on moulds taken from a 206GT but had always considered this to be speculation until now.
I'd assumed this due to numerous irregularities. These irregulatities may of been present in the original 206GT or it may be that “Automotive Design & Development” altered the moulds that they'd taken, resulting in these irregularities when they created their kitcar.
For example, if you compare the front wheel arches, the right hand side (UK drivers side) wheel arch is narrower relative to the width of the car and shorter relative to the length of the car and is set at a different angle. The tear-drop recess for the headlamp is also differently shaped on one side and the front indicator is closer to one recess than the other. Does your car have any of these problem or the many others highlighted earler.
If you can cast any light on the situation you may be able to add the final piece to this jigsaw?
hi
there was always poeple around saying doors were different sizes/wheel arches were wrong/vents in bonnet were one short etc etc but if you look at the real dino there are variations on them too.these were basically hand put together and alot of panels didn't switch from car to car either.
Poeple have spoke about the wheel bases being 4 mm to short too.Who really worries over 4mm?
I once spoke to a guy who was frowned upon at the ferrari owners club as his car was a 206gt alley body on a later 246 chasis. It looked great too and I have several photos of it.
ian
Hi
Its not mine,
its for sale and as it has no roof (apparently damaged) i was wondering if roof sections were still available?
Does anyone know if i could buy a roof if i bought the car?
Steve
hi
when I met david he was in the process of having a one-off fibreglass hard top made for it as the ragtop it came with was next to useless. I think only a couple were made,as the first one was melted in the paint shop oven!
I doubt if any still exsist (maybe someone out there knows more) as only a handful of mirabeau cars made it on to the road and most of them had the ragtop. Is the roof repairable? That maybe your best option.I guess it depends on how much the guy is asking as to wether you could get one made as regards costs.
ian
Im new to Kit cars, but i do like the look and engineering of the car.
If i were to get a hard top made (Basic) is it too difficult?
What would i pay maximum?
Steve
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1708773.htm
does any one know this car?
after missing out on the dino on ebay , iam going to have a look at this, whats the thing to look out for on the dino replicas?
I think there are several things to look for when buying a replica like the one you've spotted.
If its a Deon the footwell will be narrow and you may struggle if you take a size 9 shoe or above. Check the gearlever works well going into all gears as this is often a problem if it has a Lancia box and be prepared, the gears may not be conventional patern. Check the GRP for cracks around the front of the car because the low nose often gets curbed. Also if its been modified are the mods helping or are they going to cost you money sorting them out later.
Finally condition, all kitcars are projects and everyone has things done to improve them, so perfection isn't neccessarily what you expect when you buy one and certainly not when you buy a used one but the better it is the less money you'll spend later.
eep: 
