MadaboutKitcars

Hi M,
Welcome to the party !

Oh dear ; on that basis I’m promoting WKC? too !

According to WKC’s November issue ; they’ve already sorted all the problems , so you’d better place your order – Good luck (you’ll need it).
Actually, after nearly two and a half years of skirting around the main issues: I think putting the facts in an open file for all to read is very mature indeed and long overdue .
What’s more; I’ve had several congratulatory comments to that effect. Not only that, but several folk have sincerely thanked me for lifting the fog .

Den

Managed to down load it in work.

Printed so I can read tonight.

I agree with you on this one Den. All that tit-for-tat stuff in the magazines was a real turn off for a lot of people, putting ONLY the bare facts in the 'Filby file' means that anyone (including the mysterious'M') can have a look at all the pertinent legal documents and draw their own conclusions.
This is, of course, if they are interested or perhaps more importantly, open-minded enough to have a read. I hope we see a reciprocal arrangement from the other side, I want to be IMFORMED on the subject....cut though some of the BULL5HIT!!


PS That's my real name above the picture of my car............

The Whole Thing worked for me I'm on Acrobat 7.Something though Try downloading free Adobe Updates

Hi Ferg,
Understood, but is ‘Enthusiast’ your family name or your Christian name. LOL!!!! Thanks for your support on this point.

Hi M,
Does ‘M’ really = mysterious? And, more seriously, exactly what do you see as immature in the compilation of this file:-
http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html
I’m genuinely mystified as to why anybody might wish to scoff at the disclosure of raw information. Unless, of course, they’ve got something to hide – but you’re not in that category – are you?

Hi Chris,
Did you learn anything new ?

Den

I´m just a guy who´s intentions are good
-Oh L please don´t let me be misunderstood.

My interest is purely technical, couldn´t care less about who sleeps with who.
And now for something completely different:
What say you all, about the Python chassi issues stated in the article, are they fixable?
In my book the front suspension set up on the Python is basically a smart solution, creating less unsprung weight with the coilovers mounted within the construction. However it´s crucial to get all the angles, springloads and length of the wishbonelevers right to take full advantage of BMW´s McPearson design with built in anti dive and so on.

Den, you say you´ve been on this quest for moore than two years , can´t you just try to be a man about it and move on with your life?

Ta da

'M'

I have no wish to be dragged into this, but everything is fixable (one way or the other).
However it is my understanding that Den is asking why is it not right in the first place and if it is easily fixable, why has it not been done.
The handling of a kit is fundamental to it's ability. This ability is fundamental to the builders / buyers of the kit.

If Mercedes launched a car that didn't handle, how would this effect the sales etc. Oh, they did! It seriously effected their sales too.

Hi M,
I note your use of certain historical (in this matter) clichés They tend to indicate that you’ve been following this debate for some time. Why haven’t you posted previously?

You were asked one simple question, yet answered another.
I asked why you thought a Fact File was immature. You responded:- Which seems to reiterate your initial point. So, in what sense is this http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html Fact File immature in your view?

Mark has actually summed-up part of my concern very well. Why does this car still have such serious handling/construction defects after being ‘on sale’ for 4 years? Mercedes did recover because they addressed their problem. They certainly didn’t accuse their critics of immaturity !

So, exactly what is immature in my compiling a Fact File? Does anybody else believe it to be immature?

Den

Hi Den,

Can't believe this is still going on!

I must admit the Filbyfacts make interesting reading though!
I know both of you (albeit only a little bit...) Didn't learn much new stuff, pretty much figured things out on my own over the years and now I see them confirmed.
I haven't had any problems with Filby, I haven't had any problems with you. In fact you learned me quite a bit about the industry. What I know is no-one in the industry is without faults. Who's to blame? I wouldn't know. Who's not to blame? I wouldn't know either... All I know is that this sort of stuff happens frequently.

On a side note...
That Python being the only Cobra using BMW donor parts... That's what I've been hearing all the time. Wasn't there Willys' L&B Anaconda using BMW 3-series parts? I know he was working on it a few years ago...
If it's around, why not compare?

Wishing you all the best,
Bart

Hi Bart,
I wish I could agree, but it’s not normal for a magazine to publish the very opposite of the truth . It certainly doesn’t happen often!
In the case of the Howell reports; they were deliberately calculated to do as much harm as possible .
The very same is the case in its reporting of Python IMO , except the aim was (is) to do as much good as possible.
In both cases; readers are the losers - they were severely misled . It represents a severe abuse of trust if you ask me! One that’s far from acceptable or normal.

The difference with the Anaconda is that Willy is going to build it first – then make his claims later . What a contrast!

Den .

..and that is really the big difference.

Incidentally, the judge's summing up of the Sumo case was quite incredible. The way he reduced the amount of each claim in a rational way was facinating. In fact, the bit about gardening in the snow was bordering on funny....

Den, no no no no! You misread my post I think.

I DO understand why you have a problem with all this, and I DO think the Python story is totally misleading.
I just meant to say that when I was involved in kit-cars, I was surrounded by people 'in the know' and so I learned from 30 years of experience... And let's just say the Python story is -like I said- the rule rather than the exeception. So all this is just a confirmation from what I learned back then.

On the other hand, let's be honest here, there's very few saints about in the kitcar industry is there?!

Let's summarise:
WKC, every now and then I might go to a shop and get me a copy but I don't buy it... Never did, never will.
'Times they are a changing'... well, not really...

Edit:

To make things clear...
My regard for WKC may not be high -especially content-wise, I'm not too impressed by KCM either. Amateurism rules. And that's a shame.
Let's leave it here OK.

Hi Bart,
I’m really glad that we’ve cleared up that misunderstanding. Did you know that you’re the first manufacturer to go ‘on the record’ in affirming your understanding of the nature of Fib’s . Most have done so privately. Without doubt; he’ll contact you in the next week accusing you of slander/libel .

Hi Ferg,
That gardening in the snow bit was very funny at the time (last page of Judgment, Dec 2000). The Judge’s retort “I won’t bother you with loss of earnings :he’d have been here anyway” so clearly summed-up the judges opinion of Howell. He really was an ignorant, obnoxious, argumentative, dick-head!!! The Judge made that perfectly clear throughout; I think.

Yet Fib’s published just exactly his one-sided account and only his account (again and again). Fib’s warned me as I left the Court that I hadn’t heard the end of the matter. How right he was !

That said, he hasn’t exactly heard the end of it either – has he? Sow the wind….. Reap what you sow…. What goes around….


Hi M ,
As you can see ; some folk are learning a great deal of detail from the documents. So, are you going to say why you think publishing them ( http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html ) is immature?

Den

Let´s pretend that the bloke writing the article is used to testing various BMW´s.
Since BMW cars are known for great handling he´s got to have a more than average measurements of standards, then maybe the Python`s handling is as good as the handling of let´s say an old Sierra by comparison….?

There´s no mention of the bodywork in the article, so I assume there is no worries in that area?

Hi Den, -No I won´t try to explain why it is immature to create a “Filbyfactfile” on the internet, you have to figure that one out for your self, maybe time will tell….

M

Den's 'fact file' was something that was requested by a number of people that were following the saga. Posting on forums was becoming tedious as the same stuff was being said over and over. A reference for the goings on was asked for and seen as a good idea and Den has obliged. I personally don't see anything wrong or immature about it but I do think it's sad that 2 peoples lives have been blighted by this - you only get one crack at it after all.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

Hi M,
Listen to yourself .
Your previous post asserted:-


However, you soon move to a galaxy far, far away:-

Your point is about as technical as an episode of Star Wars (or a technical feature in WCK? for that matter ).

Den

Ok, Den thank´s for your pointer, back to the tecnical side:
So, Den, you agree that the handling equals that of an old Sierra and that the remaining chassi issues are fixable and the bodywork is OK???

M

I know this is aimed at Den but would like to add that anything is fixable, we're only talking bits of welded metal here, anyone with a modicom (sp) of chassis design pedigree could fix it.

As for the bodywork, well my own opinion was that it is nothing special. I was not impressed with what I saw at the shows, not the worst I've seen but certainly not up to other makes standards. The show car has slight ripples down the sides (only slight) and the CSM can be seen through the gel coat. All fixable if spraying the car but nothing to shout about.

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com

Hi M,
It’s always a problem with joining a conversation late in the day; so let me reiterate my very first post on this subject:-

I believe the public is being misled by dishonest publicity .

Even if the chassis can be made straight and strong; the fact remains that the company making it is bent and weak. One aspect of it’s ‘bentness’ is in the fact that Vince still hasn’t paid his Judgment debt (FFF May 05).
Another is in the reports in November's WKC ?

Den.

Hi M,
I’ve just added a link to Fib’s latest reports on Python in the fact file (Nov 05 http://www.kit-cars.com/fff/filbyfactfile1.html ).

How and why are AhhhVD going to fix problems they haven’t got ?

Fib’s has shifted his position from “fixes are being worked on” to asserting that all Python chassis (except the one and only example on the road ) are OK. Specifically: he said, of the latest demo “Its chassis is RV’s slightly redesigned and stiffer assembly, as supplied to all UK customers so far”.

In other words, he’s reiterating the yarn that VW spun to me; to the effect that the problems were solved before they were even discovered . So, whether it’s right or wrong, the Python that we’ve all seen and read about is the Python that any foolish purchasers shall get .

The question then arises as to which version of what we’ve read is correct. There’s not much doubt: even WKC ? (in a flush of half-hearted integrity ) admitted that its handling isn’t right and that it isn’t comfortable .

That was some admission concerning a kit that costs upward of £12,000 to build! When you going to order yours M? Personally; I’d advise you to buy a kit with genuine provenance . All of them would take a BMW engine if that’s what takes your fancy. Chances are that they'll still be there in a year - which is more than can be said of AhhhVD .

Den

Thanks for some technical input, finally. I think this is more interesting to discuss, after all you aren’t marrying the salesman, it’s the product you have to live with.
To summarize:
Major front suspension issues.
Ride height far too high.
Bodywork not the best quality, ripples and all.
Exhaust not tuned.
Priced 3545£

Cold hard facts I like that

Couldn’t help noticing the irony, Den, if some kits actually are sold then Vince might afford paying his debt, what a bummer

M

Which are that:-
This mediocre , half-baked , product is misrepresented as being much better than it actually is by a demented moron working in close relationship with a bent journalist .



There’s no irony whatever. Vince never had the slightest intention of paying from day one!
The only reason I issued the claim was to get to the bottom of Fib’s involvement. It was worth the £50 issue fee to watch Fib's squirm before the District Judge for two hours . As to the Judgment – I’ll have some more fun with that later.

If you’re right – if Vince really is insolvent – he shouldn’t be trading – should he?

Den

Ok, my smileyometer is indicating that this thread be locked now

John

Madabout-Kitcars.com