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Sorry to throw a spanner in the works. But before I do let me say I have a cabrio with standard sierra brakes disc/drum setup but without the "deceleration sensitive valve" and I can categorically state that the fronts lock up first on a dry road.
Not withstanding that: the Hayes manual ISBN 1 85960 090 5 "Ford Sierra 1982 to 1993" states in the intro to the braking system (Section 10.1)
"A deceleration sensitive valve on Saloon, Hatchback and Estate Models not fitted with ABS ... is incorporated into th rear brake circuit. The Valve regulates the pressure applied to the rear brakes hydraulic circuit and reduces the possibility of the rear wheels locking under heavy braking"
Section 10.23 of the same manual discribes the removal/refitting but does not detail any deassembly.
So I'm afraid Peter is incorrect in stating Haynes does not mention the dreaded valvle.
BUT it seems in the light of various tests the thing doesn seem to matter one jot.
Sorry to seem like a barrack room lawer.
No Chris, I'm sorry but you seem to have misunderstood my original concern.
I was concerned about a Residual Pressure Valve that is fitted to some brake master cylinders designed for rear drum brakes.
I am fully aware of deceleration sensitive valves and/or Load apportioning valves used to regulate the amount of pressure applied to the rear brakes. These are fitted to most cars including the Sierra and BMW donors. These are desirable and most of the recently built BMW Sportsters have the BMW valve fitted to pass the SVA/IVA tests.
For the avoidance of any doubt to anyone else, DO NOT REMOVE these valves.
My concern was about an inbuilt Residual Pressure Valves (RPV) which have been reported as causing a problem when used with rear disk brakes.
It seems that the Sierra M/C doesn't have an RPV, so it was a non issue.
I will post up a couple of pictures tomorrow.
Robin
And here they are....
The fit is so good it looks like it was made especially for the Sportster. Well done (again) all those that were involved with the selection and design of the bits!
Hi Mike, if you don't mind, it could come in very handy. Like you say, I think more like 4 right angles will be needed if I don't want a vacuum hose draped right across the middle of the engine.
Well, after a number of delays and a couple of maintanance repairs on the way, my servo is finally in and the car driven today at last. WOW! I now have the brakes that I thought I should have had all along! I have a 23mm dia master cylinder but, much the same as other’s posts, braking is progressive and the car really feels as though it is going to stop. Pedal travel is now longer but the effort required is much reduced and stopping distance seems unbelievably short. Even with heavy braking there is no sign of any tendency to lock up unexpectedly. A slight pull to one side means a bit more bleeding is required before attempting a full “lock up the wheels” test. I also want to see how the braking behaves on a wet surface as I suspect everyone so far has tried the servo out on dry roads?
So a really big thank you to Mike and Jason for making this upgrade possible and for the benefit of so many owners too. Peter.
Have just put car on rolling road , Its registering 75% efficiency, a good car would expect to be around 60% ,the fail is about 48% and my sportster was 50%+ at last MOT
Dave Cunnington - the MOC editor is short of material for the Pitstop this month, so I have penned a short follow up to the Dual 7" Servo article we began in the last issue, reflecting on the success enjoyed by those who have compared the "before and after" experience.
If anyone has any good photos of the kit fitted in your car, I am sure Dave would be pleased to receive it to go along with the article.
regards
Mike
I've had a couple of guys express an interest in a Dual 7" servo following the last project. Duksville still do not have any in stock, so I was wondering if there are a few more interested in one of these units, and shipping another half dozen units from MBM again?
Well - car passed the (first) MOT fine on Saturday with the new brakes. Rather startling to see how much the front suspension now flexes given that the brakes have some serious stopping power.
Went for the first long drive today and you rapidly get used to not having to book braking in advance....
I've had a couple of guys express an interest in a Dual 7" servo following the last project. Duksville still do not have any in stock, so I was wondering if there are a few more interested in one of these units, and shipping another half dozen units from MBM again?
Any one interested, or are we all done?
Hi Mike. Maybe wait until other members have had a chance to see them installed in our cars at Stoneleigh and also seen our smiling faces :-)
Following the Pitstop article, and a circular email to all MOC member Sportster and Hunter owners, I have received commitments from 8 owners wishing to be included in the second (and final) batch of servo kits, so it will definitely go ahead.
Early adopters may be smuggly pleased to note the later batch will be more expensive due to MBM increasing their prices, and the quote for freight for 8 units is nearly as much as the cost for the original 18 - let's hope the final order is nearer the original total.
Nonetheless later adopters can take comfort that the kit has now been very well received by those you have tested it on the road, and at around £125 is still the best value modification you'll ever make to your Marlin.
I plan to wait until after the Stoneleigh show to determine the final order number. Unless it reachesthe level of the first batch, it will be necessary to restrict the specification to just one type - probably the Powder Coated servo - as this seems to be the more highly prefered servo.
Do any of the original adopters have any positive suggestions to make regarding a second order? The old adage applies- if its positive, tell everyone - if its negative tell me privately!
Mark Matthews from Marlin Cars has replied to my emails, asking them for an update on the fitting of the servo kit to their demonstrator, with the following:
Quote :
Hi Mike
I understand that you will no longer be obtaining any more servos after this next batch or indeed carrying a permanent stock. As the servo has been received with great interest and enthusiasm by current Marlin owners I think its only right that Marlin Cars will offer to purchase and carry a small stock for both existing owners and of course all those new owners that we are creating every day.
So if you feel happy that the initial sales have been taken up and we are in fact for most part looking to normal replacements, very occasional upgrades and new kit build users would you, from the MOC perspective, let me be able to order these servos directly form the manufacturers (it would make me feel an awful lot more comfortable about suitability for purpose and liability insurance.
Hope you can understand the reasons for my position and I am thankful for all your pro-active efforts in improving the standard of Marlin kits generally.
Yours Sincerely
Mark Matthews"
Unquote.
I am not sure what to make of it really
Any thoughts?
Mark Matthews from Marlin Cars has replied to my emails, asking them for an update on the fitting of the servo kit to their demonstrator, with the following:
Quote :
Hi Mike
I understand that you will no longer be obtaining any more servos after this next batch or indeed carrying a permanent stock. As the servo has been received with great interest and enthusiasm by current Marlin owners I think its only right that Marlin Cars will offer to purchase and carry a small stock for both existing owners and of course all those new owners that we are creating every day.
So if you feel happy that the initial sales have been taken up and we are in fact for most part looking to normal replacements, very occasional upgrades and new kit build users would you, from the MOC perspective, let me be able to order these servos directly form the manufacturers (it would make me feel an awful lot more comfortable about suitability for purpose and liability insurance.
Hope you can understand the reasons for my position and I am thankful for all your pro-active efforts in improving the standard of Marlin kits generally.
Yours Sincerely
Mark Matthews"
Unquote.
I am not sure what to make of it really
Any thoughts?
I don't really understand what Mark's position is from his mail but perhaps he thought that you wanted to become a "servo trader" and sell servos to him with a few quid in your back pocket into the bargin!! But that was never what you wanted and I think Mark's approach is right. When I first suggested talking to Marlin about the servo on this forum my thought is that he should take it on as standard part of the kit because of the obvious safety benefits. Clearly he will want to make sure it is fit for purpose if he is offering it as a recommended / standard solution to cover any product / public liability issues.
I think you should count this as a great success. You, and your fellow conspirators have identified, trialled and proved a significant upgrade to Marlin cars and Marlin have decided to adopt it as a solution. Congratulations to everyone involved.
I think Mark is seeking to make sure you are happy for him to import these servo's, as you up to now have been the sole importer for Marlins for these units.
Each of us has been responsible for our own installations and testing but Mark, once he imports them and markets them via Marlin, will be responsible in law for their suitablility for the cars he sells.
Thats my take on it.
As Nigel says, you should count this as a great success to which we are all indebted to you.
I agree with Dennis above. I am planning to visit Mark and let him have a play with my Dual Servo'd Hunter just as soon as I can fix an ongoing misfire problem on the V8. Currently waiting for a new Ignition amplifier!
I agree, I think Mark is just establishing the fact that he wants to import and sell directly to customers than via you. I think this is what you wanted anyway?
If Mark is smart (which I think he is) he has spotted a bigger market in the UK Kitcar scene. This is full endorsement that he wants to supply new customers so he is obviously impressed.
BTW there is now a US supplier on eBay that will ship direct to the UK...
Not a bad price as it includes a clevis adapter and an extended pin. Of course, you'll have to add import duty at 20%(I think). And it doesn't include you great m/C adapter plate.
(BTW2 - my own servo upgrade is now in process. Servo and M/C is bolted in. Need to make up my extended pin and do the plumbing/bleeding, etc)
I agree, I think Mark is just establishing the fact that he wants to import and sell directly to customers than via you. I think this is what you wanted anyway?
If Mark is smart (which I think he is) he has spotted a bigger market in the UK Kitcar scene. This is full endorsement that he wants to supply new customers so he is obviously impressed.
BTW there is now a US supplier on eBay that will ship direct to the UK...
Not a bad price as it includes a clevis adapter and an extended pin. Of course, you'll have to add import duty at 20%(I think). And it doesn't include you great m/C adapter plate.
(BTW2 - my own servo upgrade is now in process. Servo and M/C is bolted in. Need to make up my extended pin and do the plumbing/bleeding, etc)
All,
Maybe I am a little sensitive to this project having put so much time into it, but I don't think Mark has even bothered to fit it to Marlin's own demonstrator and test it. There is no feedback from him at all - he simply refers to what he is being told. On top of that his opening paragraph is so negative to the point of being critical, which does not sit well with me.Part of me feels like telling him to whistle.............
That said, I have no desire to get involved in importing on speculation and carrying stock, so it would be nice if he does adopt the kit and make it available to future owners.
Patrick mentioned what price Marlin may wish to charge? - that is clearly up to Marlin. They have a business to run, whereas my aim was to keep the costs as low as possible for as many as possible. Having said that, I have made every effort to make this kit known to all potential Marlin Owners Club members, so anyone who arrives late to the party will have to accept Marlins commercial rates. Of course the check to their price being too high is that the servo is well documented within the club and it will be possible to import single units individually.
On that subject, may I offer a little warning.
UK import duties are 5% on servos, and VAT is levied at 20% of the landed UK cost, ie. including freight to UK. So you can see from Peters highlighted ebay source it gets very expensive. Then Parcelforce will charge an additional £13 fee for paying the UK import and VAT at customs on your behalf. This is why it is important to bring a decent sized batch to benefit from a freight forwarding agent to keep these costs down.
(BTW2 - my own servo upgrade is now in process. Servo and M/C is bolted in. Need to make up my extended pin and do the plumbing/bleeding, etc)
Peter
Its good to hear you are making progress with your servo now that you have successfully installed your beast of an engine!
I hope you will as pleased with your new found brakes. Sounds like you will need them!!
Its good to hear you are making progress with your servo now that you have successfully installed your beast of an engine!
I hope you will as pleased with your new found brakes. Sounds like you will need them!!
Mike
OK, so here's an update of my installation.
You've all seen it all before so I'll try to focus on my own installation differences and ideas.
Here is the new dual diaphragm servo installed with Mike's adaptor plate. This made fitting the Ford M/C a doddle.
I was lucky that my original reservoir pipes were long enough. I good tip I got from Robin was to use the BMW rubber seals on the m/c. One of my front brake pipe was long enough to be reformed to reach the new position. The other was extended alongside of the servo.
This is a Residual Pressure Valve that I have fitted as I have rear drum brakes. These should not be used if you have disk brakes at the back. The Servo supplier recommends fitting one of these if you have drums at the back and disk brakes at the front.
As you all know, you have to extend the plunger that goes into the m/c. This is my version using a M6x40mm button head screw and a short length of M6 threaded tube that I bought for £1.50. No lathe or drilling, just bolt it together. This picture is with the brake pedal fully depressed so that I could get to the locking ring.
With my failing eyesight and vari focals I can't see much close up in the foot-well. Most of this was assembled by feel and I use my digital camera to check everything is installed correctly. The servo clevis is alongside the brake pedal as that is how Marlin designed the Sportster pedal box. I should have modified the brake pedal to move it across but the bolt holding the pedal does not come out in situ so that would mean removing the whole pedal box which I decided was overkill. I think it will be fine like this. This picture is with the brake pedal fully depressed.
The next picture is with the pedal in its normal rest position. I set the clevis pin up at the same dimension as the old metro servo and extension which in my case was 130mm. I shortened the clevis pin coupler by about 20mm as it was too long under full compression.
I've made some brackets to support the pipes hanging in free air which are being painted before final fitting. Then I've got to refill and bleed the system.
I need to wheel the car out the garage to be able to get to each wheel for bleeding so it won't be until it stops raining!!
