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Build progress

6 Oct 2007, 9:13pm
:) Just finished writing the news bit for the pictures

Here's a piccy of us at SVA:

A trip to Metal Supermarket in Southampton in the morning to get some steel tube, then a visit from TA member Black-Cat (Tom) in the afternoon. Huge thanks to Tom for bringing his TIG round to weld this bar in for us. He also brought his tube notcher which is an awesome bit of kit!

Tube notcher makes quick work of getting the angles and surfaces right for welding.

Tom welding the underside of the bar - not an easy place to fit in!

The resulting welds!

Bar ready for paint

And paint on the bar
7 Oct 2007, 4:14pm
Patrick wrote:

The bar has to be welded same height or higher.


Looks a great job. The question in my mind is why don't Marlin do this as standard? It seems an obvious solution to the seat belt height problem...

Robin
7 Oct 2007, 4:42pm
MartinClan wrote:
Looks a great job. The question in my mind is why don't Marlin do this as standard? It seems an obvious solution to the seat belt height problem...

Robin


Good question, why doesn't Terry have things like camber, caster and toe setting to hand - its got to be a FAQ!

There's many things on the kit where I would say, why is it not that way from the start.


Bracket made and installed for the brake compensator valve. Its now solidly bolted in place with a P clip. Also add an extra P clip to one of the brake lines.

Heat shielding installed for the brake servo and master cylinder

Rubber added to bonnet edges...

.... but ran out of rubber, doh!

Started on chopping the tub so the harness does not rub on the fibreglass

Started installing convex glass in the mirrors.
7 Oct 2007, 8:58pm
MartinClan wrote:
Looks a great job. The question in my mind is why don't Marlin do this as standard? It seems an obvious solution to the seat belt height problem...

Robin


Probably becuse they haven't had a problem or have some paperwork to say the seats are strong enough?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peters-bmwmarlin/1508200045/

I've posted some other pictures I took at the same show. Also, just noticed that there was no rear view mirror on this car?
7 Oct 2007, 10:12pm
I had that conversation with Terry once - she thought the seats harness holes were sufficient and had passed SVA on their demo at the time - but it had the seatbelt bar that I see on the Marlin price list now comes as an optional extra as part of their seatbelt kit or something like that. Vindi put a bar into mine for that very reason...

Mine deflected too much though and had to be braced underneath but it looks like mine is a far less beefy bar than you've got.

Give the belts a good hard tug and see if the bar moves at all...

Great vid though - making my cautious approach to driving look wussy!!

Good luck on the retest...

Andy
7 Oct 2007, 10:13pm
They used that seat belt bar thing that goes between the rear suspension towers and brings the belts up to the height of the top of the tub. I can't see that holding much weight in an accident, the roll bar solution is much stronger.

Guess that the rear view is unnecessary once it fails.
7 Oct 2007, 10:16pm
AndyDane wrote:
I had that conversation with Terry once - she thought the seats harness holes were sufficient and had passed SVA on their demo at the time - but it had the seatbelt bar that I see on the Marlin price list now comes as an optional extra as part of their seatbelt kit or something like that. Vindi put a bar into mine for that very reason...

Mine deflected too much though and had to be braced underneath but it looks like mine is a far less beefy bar than you've got.

Give the belts a good hard tug and see if the bar moves at all...

Great vid though - making my cautious approach to driving look wussy!!

Good luck on the retest...

Andy


That bar is not going to move, the roll bar will break off first! I could probably jump up and down on it :)

Couldn't resist give it a bit of stick :) Not given it a full workout yet waiting to see if anything loosens and falls off first!
9 Oct 2007, 3:41pm
I'll write this in the order I had the conversation (I think with Mark, as Simon is out with a broken finger)

Camber: -0.5
Castor, you can't change this
Toe: parallel

So I said it failed as it would not auto centre from full lock, he said they can't fail you on that as its not a fail point. Ok so I did try asking more and...

Tyre pressure is a major issue, and it turns out you can set the castor! He advised moving the washers out the front and into the back, effectively moving the front wish bone to the back of the car. So will have to experiment!
9 Oct 2007, 4:09pm
Patrick wrote:


So I said it failed as it would not auto centre from full lock, he said they can't fail you on that as its not a fail point. Ok so I did try asking more and...



Hi Patrick...

It clearly states in the SVA manual that the steering must self center. However I think it's a bit extreme expecting it to do it on full lock - I suspect the SVA man may have got that wrong - it could be worth checking this point.

BR

Robin
9 Oct 2007, 7:24pm
MartinClan wrote:
Hi Patrick...

It clearly states in the SVA manual that the steering must self center. However I think it's a bit extreme expecting it to do it on full lock - I suspect the SVA man may have got that wrong - it could be worth checking this point.

BR

Robin


Yeah that's what I thought. Need to try some setting up, see how it handles then argue the point. However its nice to have some figures to go on now :)
9 Oct 2007, 8:52pm
Front steering and suspension defeats my logic. I've got this great book called "How to build & modify sportscar and Kitcar Suspension and Brakes" by Des Hammell, but despite reading it about 6 times i still don't understand it!

When you go round a corner at extreme steering angles, the wheels have to turn at a different angles to account for the diffrent radius circles. (Patrick, take a look at your Alfa model and you can see it). This is called Ackerman steering and is realised by the steering rack and the offset steering arms.

My normal logic says, increasing the caster angle should improve the self centering (like supermarket trolly wheels) but the book says this also causes "dynamic negative camber" i.e. lots of negative camber on full lock on the inside wheeel, which may not help? I know my Sportster does something strange at full lock.

Increasing the tyre pressure should reduce friction and make it easier to self centre.

The book says that self centering on rear wheel drive cars is achieved by the addition of toe-in, but that can cause understeer at speed.

So...

I think the plan should be to set maximum caster angle with the washers, pump up the tyres and keep increasing the toe-in equally each side until it self centres from full lock.
If that doesn't work you could try Robin's suggestion of positive camber to off-set the dynamic negative camber.
Another option might be to reduce the range of the steering rack with your hose clip end stops. The book says..." In the normal course of events, the front wheels do not turn (angularly) all that much from the staight ahead position (often not more than 20 degrees)." That's if you can get it to self centre from less than full lock.

Good luck with the trials and it's nice to see the real friendly helpful advice from Marlin hasn't changed. But we wouldn't enjoy the challenge if they told us exactly how to do it, would we? :D
Oh and just to repeat, I'm no expert on this stuff so all of the above is just ideas!
9 Oct 2007, 9:30pm
Thanks Peter :) Paul posted this on the MOC forum so between all those post I hope we can get something setup at the weekend:


Re: SVA fail - but its not too bad.
Posted by Paul Carey (Hampshire) on 9th Oct 07, 12:57 MOC Member: Yes
Most modern cars the various steering geometry angles are set so it is not easy to get hold of the information. I know that Millie’s Sierra based geometry is all to cock and I should do something to set it up correctly but it generally does not affect the driving experience most of which only requires the steering to move a few degrees. That said the tyres do squeal quite a bit in multi-storey car parks. Not a bad thing as it scatters pedestrians without actually endangering them.

My somewhat older Haynes manual for the Granada does give dimensions and I have included those for you to look at. I give them all as it shows there is quite a range. Depending on the options, and given a tolerance of 1 degree, the castor angle can be from slightly less than a degree to almost 4 degrees. One source gives angles of 3.5 to 4.5 degrees for BMWs.

I guess that given a short journey to the test centre and the fact that you are a fit young man and not a weedy little old lady in a Granada a castor angle of 4 degrees or more would be good enough. It might make it a little stiff when parking but should be fine on the open road. It should guarantee self-centring.

Measurement is another problem. The only way I found to do it is using a steel tape measure. This I attach to something near the rear wheels. The Sierra has a small hole in the axle and I put a pin into it and sticky tape the tape measure to it. Then I measure as best I can to the top and bottom of the kingpins. I know the Sierra has ball joints but they form a virtual kingpin. Given that the nuts of the ball joint are about 150mm apart 4 degrees will give a difference of about 10 mm. Roughly 2.5 mm per degree. So to be within +/- 1 degree you should measure between 7.5 to 12.5 mm. Fairly easy to do with a steel rule. The Camber angle will also affect the caster. For Millie the camber is close to zero.

I think you can check your set up by eyeball. The top of the wheels should have a pronounced lean towards the back on full lock. Compare it with a production car. Sportier cars tend to have more to compensate for hard cornering. Both locks should look the same (Millie’s doesn’t).

One other tip I read is to inflate your tyres a little harder than usual. This helps reduce steering resistance.

Once you are through the test road testing should allow you to experiment to optimise your geometry.

Good luck wit the retest,
Paul


Front wheel alignment

Toe:
Setting value . 2 ± 1 mm (0.08 ± 0.04 in) toe-in
Tolerance in service . 0.5 mm (0.02 in) toe-out to 4.5 mm (0.18 in) toe-in

Castor :
SOHC and 2.8 litre models:
Standard, without ride height control . . . + 1°51’ ± 1°00’
Standard, with ride height control . . . . + 1°58’ ± 1°00’
Heavy duty . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 1°46’ ± 1°00’
DOHC carburettor and low series fuel-injection models .
+ 2°27’ ± 1°00’
DOHC high series models . . . . . . . . . . + 2°26’± 1°00’
2.4 litre:
low series models . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 2°17’ ± 1°00’
high series models . . . . . . . . . . . . + 2°50’ ± 1°00’
2.9 litre models . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 2°22’ ± 1°00’

Camber :
SOHC and 2.8 litre models:
Standard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0°23’ ± 1°00’
Heavy duty . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0°00’ ± 1°00’
DOHC models . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .-0°17’
2.4 litre low series models..... . . . . . .-0°27’
2.4 litre high series and 2.9 litre models .-0°21’

Tolerance:
DOHC, 2.4 and 2.9 litre models: 1°00’ to + 0°60’

Difference between left-hand and right-hand sides:
SOHC and 2.8 litre models:
Castor . . 1°00’ maximum
Camber . . 1°15’ maximum
DOHC, 2.4 and 2.9 litre models:
Castor . . 1°00’
Camber . . 1°15’


I bet this forum will mangle the special characters I have used so here is a translation:
+ Plus
- Minus
± Plus or Minus
° Degree
’ Minute
10 Oct 2007, 7:32am
MartinClan wrote:
However I think it's a bit extreme expecting it to do it on full lock Robin


I tried an experiment this morning with the donor vehicle (not the real one but my 318is daily driver). It self centers from full lock without much apparent difficulty. So - it should be possible to achieve on the Sportster unless Marlin have messed with the front suspension geometry too much.

Best

Robin
10 Oct 2007, 10:17am
MartinClan wrote:
It self centers from full lock without much apparent difficulty. So - it should be possible to achieve on the Sportster unless Marlin have messed with the front suspension geometry too much.

Best

Robin



There you go again, Robin, making those sweeping assumptions!
:roll:

But seriously, I agree, with the right settings, it should be possible........
(we can let Patrick figure it out and then copy him :D)

If I get time, I might have a play with mine at the weekend and see what I can achieve...
10 Oct 2007, 6:44pm
peterux wrote:
(we can let Patrick figure it out and then copy him :D)


..the world is doomed :madgrin: :lol:
12 Oct 2007, 7:32am
I've booked a re-test next Friday, which will hopefully give the postal server time to deliver Marlin's letter and this weekend to finish up all the changes!
13 Oct 2007, 7:59pm
Lets get the mundane stuff out the way first:

Edge trim now firmly attached to the bonnet and surround

Holes in the tub for the belts to clear

Edge radius on the fibreglass

More stronger clips added to the brake pipes. Zip ties replaced with P clips

Ok I'm officially an idiot. After spending many ours buggering about with a camber/caster gauge make lots of adjustments and getting nowhere. Also measured up my Coupe as a reference. The front wheels have always looked a bit off to me. Turns out I was right. The wish bones are correct left and right, but they 180 degrees up the wrong was. DOH!!! Flipped the wishbone over, now the car auto centres no problem at all!
Note to all builders - make sure the more curvy part of the wish bone is at the front as in these pictures! Now in this situation a build manual would have been useful, unfortunately with a Marlin you don't get that!

The cycle wings now sit very much further back! Looks a bit odd. Might need to adjust those, but SVA first!
13 Oct 2007, 8:40pm
Patrick wrote:
The wish bones are correct left and right, but they 180 degrees up the wrong was. DOH!!! Flipped the wishbone over, now the car auto centres no problem at all!
Note to all builders - make sure the more curvy part of the wish bone is at the front as in these pictures! Now in this situation a build manual would have been useful, unfortunately with a Marlin you don't get that!

The cycle wings now sit very much further back! Looks a bit odd. Might need to adjust those, but SVA first!


Wow, what a breakthrough.
What was the result of having them upside down? Less caster angle, I presume? I will need to check mine down the garage but looking at my photo's, looks like I am Ok.
So what Camber, caster and toe did you end up with?
13 Oct 2007, 8:54pm
camber was -0.75, didn't measure the caster after flipping the wish bone but 2 washers at the front and 3 at the back is what I went with. Toe is slightly in ward but I don't have a way to measure it.

I will do more measuring and experimenting but its now set so I can pass SVA. I think it has quite a lot of caster as the steering really weights up as I turn in.
15 Oct 2007, 2:21pm
As I recall, it took me a while and a lot of head scratching to decide which way was right for wishbones. What swayed it for me was the angle of the upright. As you say, it would be a lot easier with a build manual but you can't have everything!
Good luck again on Friday. Your car looks great.
Alfie.
15 Oct 2007, 2:44pm
Richard did a bit of experimenting with the settings yesterday. The toe was slightly outwards to start with - auto centred fine. Changed it to toe in no longer auto centred so it looks like straight or slight toe out might be a good place for it.

Its good enough now to pass the test more measuring / testing / driving once its on the road properly :)
16 Oct 2007, 8:15am
Well I drove it about yesterday, car is really transformed with the geometry correct (shock horror!) steering pretty heavy the way its set so I will need some adjustment.

Took more tub out for the belts to clear, think this will need a better solution in future, especially with a spare slapped on the back without the cover.

I think we're all set now, more pictures here: http://www.msportster.co.uk/detail.asp?cat=20&offset=24

Not done a news item yet.
16 Oct 2007, 7:13pm
Last few tweeks before SVA retest

With the belts repositioned the boot floor needed to be modified so they clear.

Smoother out the edges around the holes for the belts.

Belt holes all done and cleaned up

All done :)


Sportster through the looking glass
19 Oct 2007, 3:48pm
It passed :razz: :razz: :razz: :bounce: :biggrin1: :madgrin: :)

It was a chilly drive this morning with the frost still on the ground, but nice and sunny on the way back, almost warm!

I just got back from the DVLA, all the forms are filled in and I have an inspection on the 30th. I've had to arrange to trailer it there as they won't let me drive it.
19 Oct 2007, 5:50pm
Great news - well done!

Robin